Error codes 12 and 13 along with crashing.
Steele:
Quote from: J. M. Pescado on 2009 October 21, 00:55:32
Quote from: Steele on 2009 October 15, 00:43:29
EDIT:
I posted this on the Official TS3 forums, I think this is the trend we'll be expecting from further expansions from the game:
This is the trend I see:
TS1 bug level : zero to minimal. The patches are few and rare for the whole series.
TS2 bug level : Minimal to Moderate. There are many bugs in every EP but they are still playable.
TS3 bug level : Moderate to Severe. Just the base game will foretell what to expect.
TS4 bug level : Probably unplayable.
I added the TS4 since there were some people who had nothing to do but speculate on something still far away and their ideas may be obsolete & forgotten in a couple of years or months.
Let's be fair: TS3 is much less buggy than TS2 base. While it is true that it is possible to munge your neighborhood in various ways, much of this is due to third-party modification allowing you to poke the games in ways it was never designed to be poked. In TS2, every neighborhood was invariably faced with certain doom in the form of the "jump bug" triggered by data file bloatage, and this was an unavoidable and inevitable thing in ANY neighborhood, and REQUIRED a third party hack to repair. Which we made. TS3, there's the "error 12", but not everyone encounters this and it is not known what exactly you're doing to trigger it. Plus, the game didn't come with a "fuck up your game" button like the fiasco that was the lot bin.
That's true. Based on what I gather less than 30% has been encountering this problem or probably even less. Also thanks for the reminder, I did forget about the Jump Bug problem that caused so much problems as well as others that MATY did solve. Those bugs did not have much impact on me since I never encountered them and was too busy cleaning out the crap and junk embedded within the sims2pack that got installed into my game. I appreciate the correction of my erroneous point of view.
I agree that it's really the player that triggers this not the game. I already solved my own error 12 and 13 problems a while back. I'm just screwing around with the game and figure out what's causing it and understand why methods that worked for me does not does not apply to others. (So I'm not asking for any help but just posting on what I have been observing and what I screw ups I made to cause it. Just try to establish a trend to understand what triggers this.)
EDIT 10/23
Just for additional information, there was a suggestion earlier that moving your household to a new neighborhood solved their error problem.
My experience it does temporary work unless you do something different (play styles, mods and all) the error will still come back.
Also, if the family you are exporting from the old hood to the new one has completed skill challenges, that sim may end up being corrupted but skill levels is retained. This is the list I saw that got altered during the export/import process:
1. Logic
Grand Master your title will remain but the sims you've beaten and next challenger will be empty
Celestial Explorer becomes cleared all celestial discoveries are erased.
Teacher Extraordinaire will reflect hours taught but the inside data listing who your sim taught, # of hours taught and date taught is empty
Skill Professor same as teacher extraordinaire
2. Writing
Without the AM, I think all books written will be purged. Probably, what will remain is number of books and total royalties made.
3. Gardening
Plantable opportunities gets reset. You cannot plant cheese, eggs, patty and steaks or order omni plant seed until you redo the opportunities
Master Planter will become incomplete. Though the planting record history is intact, You have to keep replanting until you find the right seed to complete the challenge again.
4. Charisma
Though very obvious, everything here will be reset to zero.
5. Guitar
Compositions Known will be duplicated. All master tracks will become duplicate ordinary tracks. so if you have 20 ordinary tracks your master tracks will become 20 ordinary tracks. All master tracks erased
6. Collecting
Awesomest Rock Collector in the Universe, your 100% analyzed rocks becomes 79% and this challenge becomes reset.
Any painting in the family inventory or sim inventory becomes riddler tiles
Certificates can sometimes loose the ownership links. Fishes (alive or mounted) also gets ownership link severed (My deathfish and shark became "store bought").
So basically you're importing errors to your new game.
Steele:
Sorry for the added thread. My previous thread is getting bloated.
I'm just curious, for those experiencing the Error 12s and 13s.
A. When you encounter these errors do you ...
1. Quit the game normally
2. Use the task manager to prematurely terminate the game
B. After restarting your game, how many sim days or minutes playing do you start encountering the errors once more.
What I am trying to figure out when the refresh of the cache takes place. Is it during the initial loading of the game or is it during the unloading of the game from memory when you are quitting.
Simsample:
Steele, I'm going to quote you from another thread:
Quote from: Steele on 2009 October 22, 03:37:58
I've been noticing that after some time, the game breaks ownership links for certain items. Like fishes (who caught the certain fish and fish weight, fish becomes "store bought"), it also has been happening to paintings (paintings become riddler tiles) and certificates. So far with books it has not yet occurred, perhaps the AM functionality for purchasing player written books at the bookstore keeps the link in check.
The certificates link gets broken that it does not have the "view" pie menu and becomes a mere functionless decorative.
For fishes it's easy to catch new ones and paintings is also replaceable (unless the painting is based on a happenstance event or a portrait and the subject sim is not anymore available to pose.)
This, and some of what you are saying caught my eye. The game definitely does not break ownership links after some time, in a 'normal' game. I have a generation 11 family who have certificates and paintings going back to generation 2, as well as fish caught by generation 2. They are all perfectly intact, with all ownerships working. Haven't paid any attention to the books, as I keep forgetting to take them when I move and haven't checked the library. What I'm trying to say is that all of this- the save errors, the riddler tiles, the lost ownership- seems to point to some underlying corruption, and I don't think you are going to repair it by 'cleaning up' your current savegame (it seems as though that's what you are doing?). From other tests that people have done it seems clear that people with these issues in game are having it re-occur in fresh hoods, so this means that it is probably re-occurring in your game too. We know what the symptoms are, we need to find out what is causing it- why only some computers, and stop it. I don't think there's any way you'll really repair corruption and stop it from worsening where it has already happened. So far my suspects are custom content as a cause, and also certain hardware (one user has the riddler tiles almost immediately in a vanilla game on a Mac, but install from the same disc to a PC and the game works fine).
Steele:
Quote from: Simsample on 2009 October 23, 08:54:31
Steele, I'm going to quote you from another thread:
Quote from: Steele on 2009 October 22, 03:37:58
I've been noticing that after some time, the game breaks ownership links for certain items. Like fishes (who caught the certain fish and fish weight, fish becomes "store bought"), it also has been happening to paintings (paintings become riddler tiles) and certificates. So far with books it has not yet occurred, perhaps the AM functionality for purchasing player written books at the bookstore keeps the link in check.
The certificates link gets broken that it does not have the "view" pie menu and becomes a mere functionless decorative.
For fishes it's easy to catch new ones and paintings is also replaceable (unless the painting is based on a happenstance event or a portrait and the subject sim is not anymore available to pose.)
This, and some of what you are saying caught my eye. The game definitely does not break ownership links after some time, in a 'normal' game. I have a generation 11 family who have certificates and paintings going back to generation 2, as well as fish caught by generation 2. They are all perfectly intact, with all ownerships working. Haven't paid any attention to the books, as I keep forgetting to take them when I move and haven't checked the library. What I'm trying to say is that all of this- the save errors, the riddler tiles, the lost ownership- seems to point to some underlying corruption, and I don't think you are going to repair it by 'cleaning up' your current savegame (it seems as though that's what you are doing?). From other tests that people have done it seems clear that people with these issues in game are having it re-occur in fresh hoods, so this means that it is probably re-occurring in your game too. We know what the symptoms are, we need to find out what is causing it- why only some computers, and stop it. I don't think there's any way you'll really repair corruption and stop it from worsening where it has already happened. So far my suspects are custom content as a cause, and also certain hardware (one user has the riddler tiles almost immediately in a vanilla game on a Mac, but install from the same disc to a PC and the game works fine).
On normal gameplay, it should not have any problems with the ownership breaks. In the case of The Sims, there is no such thing as normal gameplay generally since there's always custom content and the freeform method of the game anything is possible. It's also the same case as other freeform games like Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout3.
Of course there will be some problems generated by the hardware itself but most of the bulk of the problem is always in the side of the user. Based on your last example with the Mac and the PC, It could be that there was a bad install that happened with the Mac or the Mac might not have enough free resources when the game was loaded. Really hard to tell unless there are more details involved.
What the user does abnormally & what the user adds is really the deciding factor in what happens to the game.
Most of the debug codes are marked experimental and as Pescado warned it must not be taken lightly as a quick fix but as a last resort. The breakage and corruptions in the game may also be attributed to some abuse of these experimental codes as well as some abnormal actions initiated by the user. As example, the user feels that a certain sim is stuck but in actuality behind the scenes, that sim is loading some data, the user gets impatient then types "resetsim" the loading is aborted halfway, though the sim may appear normal, the aborted load may possibly remain in memory and corrupt the said sim.
I'm not exactly cleaning out my save games but isolating potential sources. I'm removing what I think I can do without and see if that was causing the problem or not. Worse comes to worse. Even what I really want in the game is the source of the problem then it has to be removed and noted. Because it's really easy to just remove the whole game, re-install it and start a new game. But without knowing what I did that caused it, eventually I'll re-encounter the same predicament as before.
I have been poking around the savefile recently so far there are so much redundant sim descriptions linked around a certain sim. A corruption in one of the duplicate description may go unnoticed at first but it may start problems once accessed. There is a portion in the sim description that if improperly valued will prevent the save game to be loaded. However, with the other values the game will load normally but the effect is not visible during gameplay.
I still believe that the game has certain limitations in terms of cache size and set resource parameters allocated for the game to run. Also there is some belief that the game has a memory leak. So knowing this, I think the best way is try an minimize your gameplay, what you don't need, you remove. Keep removing until the desired result is achieved. There is no set answers since not everybody has the same machine specs. This is under the assumption that the game is newly loaded (so no error 12 or 13 encountered yet for that session).
One thing I learned. Once error 12 or 13 has appeared. It's best to reload the whole game. Don't force and bypass it. More bugs and problems will appear if you get lucky and bypass it. That is why I was asking at a previous post upon encountering the errors if the player quits normally or premature terminates the game. I found that premature termination can leave certain data in the cache and the errors will be easily be filled. This is just my experience. If this theory is correct then even starting with a new hood using the same cache the new hood could easily contract the problem that is retained in the cache.
EDIT
I've been looking into the genealogy records inside the save game and found some weird stuff. Sims removed from the neighborhood via "Therapture" and "Destroyalltownies" are not all destroyed some sims descriptions still remain within the save game. Also occupied lots that are moved around causes duplicate sims in the save game as well. My game has now 3 sets of Goths (Gunther, Cornelia and Mortimer), 4 Bella Bachelors and lots of other sims.
However, Sims that are purged by the EAxis default emmigration are not found within the list.
It could be that all these junk sim descriptions bloat up the save file size and possibly also clutters up the cache. So with a town that has lots of history behind it there is also lots of Sim Descriptions cluttering up space.
Simsample:
Quote from: Steele on 2009 October 23, 13:16:09
On normal gameplay, it should not have any problems with the ownership breaks. In the case of The Sims, there is no such thing as normal gameplay generally since there's always custom content and the freeform method of the game anything is possible. It's also the same case as other freeform games like Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout3.
I don't see how you are going to possibly get to the root of a problem unless you remove all of the unknown variables. In other words, I don't see how you are possibly going to find out what is causing these errors in your game whilst you are installing, removing and changing your savegame with custom content. In Sims 2 it was not uncommon for a mod or CC which was once thought acceptable to later be found to be damaging. For the case with the Mac, this was with a person knowledgeable in computing, who used two different computers and multiple installs to attempt to troubleshoot a persistent issue. This is one of only two cases I've seen where custom content was definitely not involved. It is frustrating to watch so many people on so many threads experiencing the same issues over and over, when the whole troubleshooting process could be expedited by eliminating some possible causes. The first and easiest to eliminate is custom content.
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