Important notice from the GRAMMAR POLICE. Plz read. This means you.

[timelycorruption]

I wouldn't say that a learning disability is the opposite of intelligence. What about savants?

People with learning disabilities are not intelligent. Savantism is not equivalent to intelligence at all. Intelligence is the ability to learn and adapt to arbitrary conditions. Being a savant just makes you a fleshy robotic machine, no different than a computer. A computer can perform complex mathematics faster than any meatbag. A computer can regurgitate enormous amounts of information with flawless accuracy. A computer cannot beat a 6 year old child in Civilization. Computers are stupid.

That makes more sense. I think I was mixing savantism up with something else in my head.

[rufio]

Well, "learning disability" doesn't necessarily mean the inability to learn, just the inability to learn in the specific environments that people are generally expected to learn in.  This is why there are often attempts to educate learning-disabled kids in other environments.  What that actually says about their universal, environmentally-independent level of intelligence probably depends on a lot of other factors.  I don't think we even have a way to measure environmentally-independent intelligence, and they are unlikely to get very far in the standard school system in any case, so I'm not sure it really makes much difference.

[rohina]

Inability to learn in specific environments is still inability to use intelligence. If you can only learn in a padded room with flashing lights, then you are pretty screwed unless the entire world is rearranged to take account for your speshulness. I know there's a movement in edumacation to do exactly that. However, this kind of idea of "accomodations" is seriously fucking up a bunch of learning disabled students, because it is designed to delude them into thinking their disability doesn't exist.

Look at it this way: if you only have one arm and one eye and you say you want to be a neurosurgeon, is it reasonable for people to say to you "absolutely, you can totally do that" or would they be better off suggesting that you do something where hand-eye co-ordination is less vital?

[dramamine]

Inability to learn in specific environments is still inability to use intelligence. If you can only learn in a padded room with flashing lights, then you are pretty screwed unless the entire world is rearranged to take account for your speshulness. I know there's a movement in edumacation to do exactly that. However, this kind of idea of "accomodations" is seriously fucking up a bunch of learning disabled students, because it is designed to delude them into thinking their disability doesn't exist.

Look at it this way: if you only have one arm and one eye and you say you want to be a neurosurgeon, is it reasonable for people to say to you "absolutely, you can totally do that" or would they be better off suggesting that you do something where hand-eye co-ordination is less vital?

I was typing up something quite similar, but you worded it a lot better than I.

[rufio]

Inability to learn in specific environments is still inability to use intelligence. If you can only learn in a padded room with flashing lights, then you are pretty screwed unless the entire world is rearranged to take account for your speshulness. I know there's a movement in edumacation to do exactly that. However, this kind of idea of "accomodations" is seriously fucking up a bunch of learning disabled students, because it is designed to delude them into thinking their disability doesn't exist.

The problem is that "learning disability" is very general - it can refer to people with dyslexia, or people with mild to severe autism, or people with mental retardation, or probably any number of other things.  All they have in common is that they have more trouble that usual learning in the environment they're expected to learn in.  Some of them can be fixed with minor changes to environment, some of them can be fixed by taking certain drugs, some people do fine if they have someone else take notes for them, and some of them probably can't be fixed at all.  I've never been diagnosed with a learning disability, but I have had problems with certain teachers to the extent where it was impossible to actually get any benefit out of the class because the teacher decided to take some kind of vendetta out on me.  This was easily fixed by my transferring to a different class.  Most people I've met with "learning disabilities" had remarkably similar problems with learning - some superficial aspect of the class they were in made it impossible for them to learn, and they simply transferred to a slightly different classroom or a slightly different teacher or employed different strategies for taking notes/doing homework/etc. or took some mild-strength drug to help them focus and the problem was more or less solved.  I don't think the vast majority of these cases are about accommodating people with serious mental deficiencies, but about having teachers show some creativity and flexibility to actually help their students learn.

Actually, when I was 18 and relatively clueless about this sort of thing, I was under the impression that learning disabilities didn't exist.  I was told off by various people with learning disabilities who had done some of the things I listed above.  Clearly, these measures don't put anyone under the impression that their problems don't exist.  I'm sure a lot of non-learning-disabled people will have trouble learning in situations that others would not, as well - it's just that since they never had to try learning in those environments, this disability was never recorded.

[rohina]

The problem is that "learning disability" is very general - it can refer to people with dyslexia, or people with mild to severe autism, or people with mental retardation, or probably any number of other things.  All they have in common is that they have more trouble that usual learning in the environment they're expected to learn in.  Some of them can be fixed with minor changes to environment, some of them can be fixed by taking certain drugs, some people do fine if they have someone else take notes for them, and some of them probably can't be fixed at all.  I've never been diagnosed with a learning disability, but I have had problems with certain teachers to the extent where it was impossible to actually get any benefit out of the class because the teacher decided to take some kind of vendetta out on me. 

Dude, this is a result of your personality disability, not a learning disability.

This was easily fixed by my transferring to a different class.  Most people I've met with "learning disabilities" had remarkably similar problems with learning - some superficial aspect of the class they were in made it impossible for them to learn, and they simply transferred to a slightly different classroom or a slightly different teacher or employed different strategies for taking notes/doing homework/etc. or took some mild-strength drug to help them focus and the problem was more or less solved.  I don't think the vast majority of these cases are about accommodating people with serious mental deficiencies, but about having teachers show some creativity and flexibility to actually help their students learn.

Well, one person's creativity and flexibility is another person's having educational standards. I deal with learning disabled students all the time, and a lot of the ones with alphabet disorders have this idea that I should redesign my courses to suit them. Occasionally, I get the talk from them about how my assignments, which are designed according to specific pedagogical principles to be open-ended and require critical and analytical thinking, are counter to their disability, because the way they learn requires detailed and specific instructions. Now, to me, the ability to work out how you are going to approach the task is absolutely the student's responsibility. I will HELP, but I am not going to set all that out for you, because I am teaching you how to do it yourself.

I have met with disability support people, and they always say, "oh, yes, the student has to work this out, and we will help them develop a plan of attack" but the students themselves often bitch and whine about it, and talk about how "my other professor" spoon feeds instructions: "wipe nose, get out pencil, find a piece of paper". So I am skeptical about how much of this is related to disability and how much to intellectual laziness.

I once had a learning disabled student who was in my class, and was a whiny bitch. She came back 2 years later to do another class after having been in the workplace, and her attitude was totally different. She would come to me with plans of what she was going to do, and ask me for my input, instead of complaining, she actually had strategies for getting the work done. When I commented on how much better she was doing, she said something to effect of, it is amazing what you find out you can do when you are getting your ass kicked in the real world.

My point here is, there's a difference between working to overcome your issues and expecting everyone else to stoop to your level.

[rufio]

Dude, this is a result of your personality disability, not a learning disability.

Which is why I prefaced that by saying that I don't have a learning disability, though I don't think I was the only person with a "personality disability" in that instance.

I have met with disability support people, and they always say, "oh, yes, the student has to work this out, and we will help them develop a plan of attack" but the students themselves often bitch and whine about it, and talk about how "my other professor" spoon feeds instructions: "wipe nose, get out pencil, find a piece of paper". So I am skeptical about how much of this is related to disability and how much to intellectual laziness.

So, some of your students are lazy.  They are obviously not damaged beyond the ability to learn anything, and nobody is forcing you to completely redesign your courses to accommodate them, or trying to convince you (or your students) that the learning disabilities do not exist and the sole responsibility of the teacher to deal with.  I don't see whatever vast speshul learning disability bureaucratic conspiracy you think you're up against here.

[socurious]

Learning Disabled does not equal stupid.  The opposite is actually often true.  True LD people have average to exceptional IQs.  That being said, I do agree with Rohina's statement:

"Inability to learn in specific environments is still inability to use intelligence. If you can only learn in a padded room with flashing lights, then you are pretty screwed unless the entire world is rearranged to take account for your speshulness. I know there's a movement in edumacation to do exactly that. However, this kind of idea of "accomodations" is seriously fucking up a bunch of learning disabled students, because it is designed to delude them into thinking their disability doesn't exist."

There are a number of examples of exceptionally talented, accomplished people who are LD.  They are those who think outside the norm,  figure out what and how they need to learn, and end up owning the world.  The edumacators who make excuses and tell the students that it's okay that they don't know something are doing a terrible disservice to everyone.  The "LD" students are no longer held accountable, so they no longer try to figure out things on their own.  When they go out into the "real world," they are going to find out first hand that the accommodations aren't so accommodating.

[rufio]

The edumacators who make excuses and tell the students that it's okay that they don't know something are doing a terrible disservice to everyone.  The "LD" students are no longer held accountable, so they no longer try to figure out things on their own. 

See, I keep hearing about all of these horrible horrible OMG terrible conspiracies to protect learning-disabled kids in a bubble and not requiring them to actually think, but have never actually encountered them anywhere except in blanket statements on message boards.  It's like how Communism/Socialized Medicine/Dirty Mexicans/Neoconservative Jews are somehow taking over America, except that rohina isn't American, so the madness has clearly invaded Australia as well.

[rohina]

So, some of your students are lazy.  They are obviously not damaged beyond the ability to learn anything, and nobody is forcing you to completely redesign your courses to accommodate them, or trying to convince you (or your students) that the learning disabilities do not exist and the sole responsibility of the teacher to deal with.  I don't see whatever vast speshul learning disability bureaucratic conspiracy you think you're up against here.

I never said I was. The only conspiracy in this thread is the one in your head which automagically reads everything I write as "ROHINA IS THE ANTICHRIST" in your feeble little brain. Go away, the adults were having a conversation.

[J. M. Pescado]

The problem is that "learning disability" is very general - it can refer to people with dyslexia, or people with mild to severe autism, or people with mental retardation, or probably any number of other things.  All they have in common is that they have more trouble that usual learning in the environment they're expected to learn in.

Yeah, well, the inability to learn in ANY environment is a sign that YOU ARE STUPID. For instance, some people have difficulty learning under conditions which involve flying shrapnel, bullets, and nearby explosions. While certainly not ideal conditions for study, you should still be capable of learning under these conditions if you have a brain at all. Some people simply cannot. We have a word for them: DEAD.

[rufio]

I never said I was.

So what did you mean what you said this?

I know there's a movement in edumacation to do exactly that. However, this kind of idea of "accomodations" is seriously fucking up a bunch of learning disabled students, because it is designed to delude them into thinking their disability doesn't exist.

Yeah, well, the inability to learn in ANY environment is a sign that YOU ARE STUPID.

Sure.  My point was that "learning-disabled" simply means that you have trouble learning in whatever specific environment they first tried to teach you in, and not that you are incapable of learning in any environment whatsoever.

[socurious]

See, I keep hearing about all of these horrible horrible OMG terrible conspiracies to protect learning-disabled kids in a bubble and not requiring them to actually think, but have never actually encountered them anywhere except in blanket statements on message boards.  It's like how Communism/Socialized Medicine/Dirty Mexicans/Neoconservative Jews are somehow taking over America, except that rohina isn't American, so the madness has clearly invaded Australia as well.
[/quote]

NIFL (National Institute for Literacy) estimates that up to 80% of high school drop outs are LD.  As an ABE/GED educator, I find those numbers are greatly exaggerated.  Those numbers, generated from just that one source should indicate something.  Empirical evidence shows the most common issue is behavior/self-control in the younger drop-outs, whereas in the older students, the most likely reason for dropping-out was to take care of responsibilities.  Yes, of course there actually are some students who are diagnosed LD, but they are the ones who are coming back just to prove to themselves they can, after achieving what they intended.

As for Rohina not being American - she is from an English-speaking, western civilization, and as an academian (sp), is probably more informed about the educational trends that go on in the US than most people IN the educational system.

The problem is that "learning disability" is very general - it can refer to people with dyslexia, or people with mild to severe autism, or people with mental retardation, or probably any number of other things.  All they have in common is that they have more trouble that usual learning in the environment they're expected to learn in.

Yeah, well, the inability to learn in ANY environment is a sign that YOU ARE STUPID. For instance, some people have difficulty learning under conditions which involve flying shrapnel, bullets, and nearby explosions. While certainly not ideal conditions for study, you should still be capable of learning under these conditions if you have a brain at all. Some people simply cannot. We have a word for them: DEAD.

LD does not include anyone with mental retardation.  That is covered under mental retardation (or some subcategory). 

I think shrapnel and bullets would induce FASTER learning! (or death.).

[rufio]

Empirical evidence shows the most common issue is behavior/self-control in the younger drop-outs, whereas in the older students, the most likely reason for dropping-out was to take care of responsibilities.  Yes, of course there actually are some students who are diagnosed LD, but they are the ones who are coming back just to prove to themselves they can, after achieving what they intended.

Not saying you're wrong, but what does "empirical evidence" mean to you?  Personal experiences with your specific students?  Anecdotes from friends?  Actual data from an organization you trust more?  Which one?

Rohina

I call her rohina because that is what she chose to call herself.  If she wants me to capitalize her name, she can go into her profile and change it.  If you want to take up this issue with rohina herself, be my guest.

she is from an English-speaking, western civilization, and as an academian (sp), is probably more informed about the educational trends that go on in the US than most people IN the educational system.

I am not saying she doesn't.  In fact, I am asking for her to give her Official Academic Opinion (tm) on this subject, with supporting sources of course.

Also, "(sp)" is the same thing as saying "I care about appearing educated but I'm too fucking lazy to actually look up the spellings of words."  Fail.

[socurious]

Not saying you're wrong, but what does "empirical evidence" mean to you?  Personal experiences with your specific students?  Anecdotes from friends?  Actual data from an organization you trust more?  Which one?

I really should have included that the information was based on my experience and interaction with my students.  You know, the HUMAN interaction with other humans, where I actually meet, observe, interact, assess, teach, talk, celebrate... As opposed to a questionnaire built to build statistics.

I am not saying she doesn't.  In fact, I am asking for her to give her Official Academic Opinion (tm) on this subject, with supporting sources of course.

Why?

Also, "(sp)" is the same thing as saying "I care about appearing educated but I'm too fucking lazy to actually look up the spellings of words."  Fail.

Actually, it's spelled absolutely correct.  Did you check?  I wasn't happy with the specific application of the word in this case.  A "member of an academy, university or college" could refer to just about anyone.  And frankly, brain-fartage came in the way of thinking of a more applicable term. 

[rufio]

I really should have included that the information was based on my experience and interaction with my students.  You know, the HUMAN interaction with other humans, where I actually meet, observe, interact, assess, teach, talk, celebrate... As opposed to a questionnaire built to build statistics.

What makes you think your class is an appropriate sample of the entire country?  What makes you think that the organization did not actually talk to real people?  Do you have any explanation of how these results might have been produced if they were not in fact correct?  Your personal experiences are probably relevant to the discussion, but using them to "disprove" the findings of an actual scientific study is bullshit.

I am not saying she doesn't.  In fact, I am asking for her to give her Official Academic Opinion (tm) on this subject, with supporting sources of course.

Why?

Because I want to see her actually back up her blanket statement with something of substance?

Actually, it's spelled absolutely correct.  Did you check? 

It doesn't matter if it's spelled correctly, and it doesn't matter if I checked your spelling for you.  The fact that you found it necessary to put "(sp)" in your post means that you didn't check your spelling even though you were unsure.  Either that, or you don't know what "(sp)" means.

[dramamine]

The edumacators who make excuses and tell the students that it's okay that they don't know something are doing a terrible disservice to everyone.  The "LD" students are no longer held accountable, so they no longer try to figure out things on their own. 

See, I keep hearing about all of these horrible horrible OMG terrible conspiracies to protect learning-disabled kids in a bubble and not requiring them to actually think, but have never actually encountered them anywhere except in blanket statements on message boards.  It's like how Communism/Socialized Medicine/Dirty Mexicans/Neoconservative Jews are somehow taking over America, except that rohina isn't American, so the madness has clearly invaded Australia as well.

You may not have personally encountered these bubble kids, but I was forced into a peer based tutoring program for LD kids in the American public school I went to.

None of the kids I was assigned to had any ability to think for themselves. They were within a year of my age at the time and they behaved like children 3 to 5 years younger. They all suffered from self-entitlement and outstandingly huge egos from the years of ass wiping in the LD classes and/or by their medication dispensers/doctors. At the end of the program, I was the one held accountable for their failures (what the shit, I was 12!) and they were told "It's not your fault she failed you. She must have a teaching disability." and were ushered off onto the next year of LD studies. No accountabiliy and no reprocussions for failure, regardless of how or why they failed. The program even went so far as to give me a negative modifier to my Civics grade, causing my Honor Roll status to be removed.

Just as a note to my post, I'm not backing any particular side of this discussion, but I wanted to say that I had seen such children in my personal experience. As you stated, rufio, personal experiences are probably relevant to the discussion. Consider this as my personal experience added to the discussion and in no way is it an attempt to disprove anything.

[socurious]

What makes you think your class is an appropriate sample of the entire country?  What makes you think that the organization did not actually talk to real people?  Do you have any explanation of how these results might have been produced if they were not in fact correct?  Your personal experiences are probably relevant to the discussion, but using them to "disprove" the findings of an actual scientific study is bullshit.

Obviously, you have absolutely no idea what and/or how statistical data is generated.  Questions are asked, yes.  Interaction, however, is extremely limited. 

I never used the word "disprove", hence my use of empirical evidence to explain my reasoning.

I am not saying she doesn't.  In fact, I am asking for her to give her Official Academic Opinion (tm) on this subject, with supporting sources of course.

Why?[/quote]

Because I want to see her actually back up her blanket statement with something of substance?

Again, why?  Isn't her experience enough?  You, who thinks that LD is included in mental retardism?  You are asking for substance?

It doesn't matter if it's spelled correctly, and it doesn't matter if I checked your spelling for you.  The fact that you found it necessary to put "(sp)" in your post means that you didn't check your spelling even though you were unsure.  Either that, or you don't know what "(sp)" means.

  I can help you with reading comprehension. 

[socurious]

You may not have personally encountered these bubble kids, but I was forced into a peer based tutoring program for LD kids in the American public school I went to.

None of the kids I was assigned to had any ability to think for themselves. They were within a year of my age at the time and they behaved like children 3 to 5 years younger. They all suffered from self-entitlement and outstandingly huge egos from the years of ass wiping in the LD classes and/or by their medication dispensers/doctors. At the end of the program, I was the one held accountable for their failures (what the shit, I was 12!) and they were told "It's not your fault she failed you. She must have a teaching disability." and were ushered off onto the next year of LD studies. No accountabiliy and no reprocussions for failure, regardless of how or why they failed. The program even went so far as to give me a negative modifier to my Civics grade, causing my Honor Roll status to be removed.

Just as a note to my post, I'm not backing any particular side of this discussion, but I wanted to say that I had seen such children in my personal experience. As you stated, rufio, personal experiences are probably relevant to the discussion. Consider this as my personal experience added to the discussion and in no way is it an attempt to disprove anything.

What you are describing doesn't sound like LD.  That sounds more like emotionally disturbed. 

[J. M. Pescado]

Sure.  My point was that "learning-disabled" simply means that you have trouble learning in whatever specific environment they first tried to teach you in, and not that you are incapable of learning in any environment whatsoever.

I argue that some kids simply have a problem learning in environments that don't contain enough beatings. Solution: More beatings!

[rufio]

maurie, double-posting is somewhat taboo here.  Edit your first post to include the text of the second.

Obviously, you have absolutely no idea what and/or how statistical data is generated.  Questions are asked, yes.  Interaction, however, is extremely limited.

I know how statistical surveys are conducted.  I don't think it's an especially enlightening procedure myself, but this seems like a fairly straightforward question - it's fairly easy to determine whether someone dropped out of school, and probably also fairly easy to determine if they have been diagnosed with a LD.  The possible answers for both questions are "yes" or "no".  There isn't a gray area to confuse things.  Of course, this data itself does not go into why every single one of them dropped out, but it shows what they wanted to show (apparently) - that LD kids are getting shaft from somewhere.

I never used the word "disprove", hence my use of empirical evidence to explain my reasoning.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but it seemed like you were saying that the study's results were wrong and then giving your personal experience as a refutation.

Again, why?  Isn't her experience enough?

I don't have any particular faith in rohina's experience, no.  Please to be doing a search of Retardo Land before jumping into the middle of preexisting fights.

[dramamine]

What you are describing doesn't sound like LD.  That sounds more like emotionally disturbed.

Reflecting upon that craptastic time, the students could have very well have been emotionally disturbed. However, to my knowledge then and now, I know that there were some children who were LD who weren't exactly as I described. A majority of the ones I encountered during that time were. A few even managed to enter the same high school I attended and participated in regular classes... but with a lot of accomidations. Such as no homework and very little accountability for classwork. That high school didn't have a seperate department/set of teachers to assist LD children, so the entire class had to deal with their accomidations.

That was the main reason why I dropped out of that high school. I was sick of class being dumbed down to an astounding degree and being treated as a troublemaker when I asked questions that made the others think.

[rohina]

I never said I was.

So what did you mean what you said this?

I know there's a movement in edumacation to do exactly that. However, this kind of idea of "accomodations" is seriously fucking up a bunch of learning disabled students, because it is designed to delude them into thinking their disability doesn't exist.

I meant exactly what I said. It's not a conspiracy, it's a misguided educational approach. I don't think there's any mystery about it, however wrongheaded I think it is. Students with learning disabilities are being encouraged to think that they can do whatever they want, to the point where my office mate got a student in his class who seriously could not write a sentence, but who wanted to be an English major so she could be a writer. Her language and cognitive disabilities were so severe that she was never going to be able to pass a Grade 12 equivalent English class, but teaching aide after teaching aide had passed her along, giving her the idea that not being able to write a simple sentence (and we are talking "the cat sat on the mat") was not going to hold her back.

Oh, and I see from subsequent posts that you have decided that I am making all this stuff up. Well, there's a shock. If there's any information you don't like, just dismiss it out of hand.

@maurie and others who are less insane than rufio: my experiences are anecdotal, but they come from 8 years teaching in a post-secondary institution in Canada. I have at least 1 LD student every semester, and I think my peak was a glorious 12 one semester when I was teaching a class they are all drawn to like bees to honey.

[rufio]

Students with learning disabilities are being encouraged to think that they can do whatever they want, to the point where my office mate got a student in his class who seriously could not write a sentence, but who wanted to be an English major so she could be a writer. Her language and cognitive disabilities were so severe that she was never going to be able to pass a Grade 12 equivalent English class, but teaching aide after teaching aide had passed her along, giving her the idea that not being able to write a simple sentence (and we are talking "the cat sat on the mat") was not going to hold her back.

Well, that's just dumb administration.  It sounds like what they would do with Algebra and Geometry at my high school - someone decided that everyone must take Geometry in 10th grade, even if you'd failed Algebra in 9th grade and therefore had no real background to properly learn the Geometry.  That's not just a problem with LD kids.

BTW, what were her language disabilities?  Was it specific to writing, or was she just not able to form grammatical sentences at all?

Oh, and I see from subsequent posts that you have decided that I am making all this stuff up. Well, there's a shock. If there's any information you don't like, just dismiss it out of hand.

I did not decide you were "just making all this stuff up".  I am just sick of hearing you go on about things like this that I have never personally seen happen or even heard about from anyone not on a message board, without one single anecdote to show what you're talking about or one single guess at what might actually be happening to cause it.  If I have to attack you to find out WTF you are talking about, so be it.

[rohina]

Guh, more reading failure. No one was MAKING this person take English. They were encouraging her, merely because she had expressed an interest in it, and in spite of a bunch of issues that made it pretty much contra-indicated. If my blind person had insisted on majoring in Art History, do you think that is something she should have been encouraged to do? Or at some point, does someone need to say, "Uh, dude, if you can't see the paintings, it is going to be a bit difficult for you to write essays about them"?

What the hell is your argument, now? That my experience is nothing but anecdotal? Possibly, except I have had discussions with other academics about similar situations. Oh, but you don't believe me when I say that? Because really, your argument, based on nothing, is that you have decided I am bad at my job?

What is your evidence to support your position? That you had some teachers who had trouble putting up with your shit? How is that valid, if you are dismissing everyone else's personal experience?

As far as your "I am sick of you saying things outside my experience", well, I am sorry your experiences are so limited. Have you asked an educator about these issues? I mean, if you are complaining that you haven't encountered these opinions elsewhere, I have to ask if you have put yourself in the way of encountering them. MATY is full of people I wouldn't meet AFK. It's one of the things I like about this place, actually, since meeting retired mercenaries who live in bunkers is not something that would normally happened to my sheltered, Ivory Tower, self. Meeting entitled assholes who think they are smarter than they are is something I have no shortage of in my workaday life, though.

If you are now dismissing arguments people are making here because they are making them here, I have to ask wtf you think you are going to accomplish. Maybe you should go have a lie down.