Help Wanted: Building my own PC

[syberspunk]

So... now that I've got a job... I thought it's bout time I upgrade my machine, which is about 4+ years old.  Here's a list of items I found on newegg.  I was wondering if anybody might be able to help me out by:

1) Giving opinions on the hardware I selected.
2) Provide possible recommendations for better alternatives.  Cheaper/affordable would help, but I'm willing to consider slightly more expensive (within a 10-20$ range) if it means a significant improvement in quality.
3) Suggest any other parts that I may need

Would I really need a separate fan or would I really need a cooling system?   I browsed around the toms hardware site and through the DIY guides, but it's all a tad overwhelming.  There's just a lot of info, it's kind of overwhelming for me.  I was hopin to find like a barebones tower that I could just buy, but they all kind of just fall short one way or another.  Ideally, I want a decently powerful machine to play Sims 2.  I started out by choosing a processor.  I went for an Intel Core 2 Duo, but sort of like the middle line, not the cheapest, but not the newest/fastest.  I then chose an SLI capable mobo, just in case I eventually felt like enabling that sometime later in the future.  Then, I picked a tower that looks like it would support the mobo, and had at least 3 CD/DVD bays, and enough bays for hard drives (I have like 4 right now).  I wanted a decent graphics card with a chunk of memory (512MB) and I thought 12 pixel pipelines seemed like a good idea.  I'm leaning towards nVidia.  From this list, I chose the one that had the highest core and clock speed, but was at the lower end cost wise.  And for now, I'm just getting 1GB of DDR2 667Mhz memory.

Broadway Com Corp 82-4HL Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 500W Power Supply - Retail
Item #: N82E16811162027
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
      $44.99
   

   
Foxconn FV-N76SM3DT GeForce 7600GS 512MB GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
Item #: N82E16814186007
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

   $35.00 Mail-in Rebate
   $129.99
   
   

BUFFALO Select 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Desktop Memory Model D2U667C-1G/BR - Retail
Item #: N82E16820150048
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

   $20.00 Mail-in Rebate
   $94.99
   
   

ECS NFORCE 570 SLIT-A (V5.1) LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 570 SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Item #: N82E16813135026
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

   -$5.00 Instant
$15.00 Mail-in Rebate
   $89.99
$84.99
   
   

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 Conroe 2.13GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6400 - Retail
Item #: N82E16819115004
Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy

      $222.00


Any opinions, criticisms, or suggestions would be helpful.  I was hoping to keep the expense down as best as possible.  The total for what I've got so far is about $600+  Ideally, I'd like to keep it under 700ish.

Ste

[J. M. Pescado]

It seems like a solid system, although I'd go with an ATI instead, if your main interest is simming. Nvidia graphics cards seems to be linked to repeated problems.

[syberspunk]

Yeah... I was following somewhat, the convo about nVidia in the that other thread.  However... if/when I actually get into "real" PC gaming, most likely MMORPG related... with maybe/possibly FPS or RTS games... it seems tht nVidia is better suited, no?

If I were to chose from an ATI card, what would you recommend from this list?


Also... how significant does Core and Clock speed matter?  I assume a higher speed is better.  A lot of the cards have around 500Mhz for core speed.  Some of the cards, however has Memory Clock speed as high as 800Mhz, but a few of them have like 1200-1300Mhz?  Does this make a significant different graphics wise?

Ste

[TXSundown]

So... now that I've got a job... I thought it's bout time I upgrade my machine, which is about 4+ years old.  Here's a list of items I found on newegg.  I was wondering if anybody might be able to help me out by:

1) Giving opinions on the hardware I selected.
2) Provide possible recommendations for better alternatives.  Cheaper/affordable would help, but I'm willing to consider slightly more expensive (within a 10-20$ range) if it means a significant improvement in quality.
3) Suggest any other parts that I may need

Would I really need a separate fan or would I really need a cooling system?   I browsed around the toms hardware site and through the DIY guides, but it's all a tad overwhelming.  There's just a lot of info, it's kind of overwhelming for me.  I was hopin to find like a barebones tower that I could just buy, but they all kind of just fall short one way or another.  Ideally, I want a decently powerful machine to play Sims 2.  I started out by choosing a processor.  I went for an Intel Core 2 Duo, but sort of like the middle line, not the cheapest, but not the newest/fastest.  I then chose an SLI capable mobo, just in case I eventually felt like enabling that sometime later in the future.  Then, I picked a tower that looks like it would support the mobo, and had at least 3 CD/DVD bays, and enough bays for hard drives (I have like 4 right now).  I wanted a decent graphics card with a chunk of memory (512MB) and I thought 12 pixel pipelines seemed like a good idea.  I'm leaning towards nVidia.  From this list, I chose the one that had the highest core and clock speed, but was at the lower end cost wise.  And for now, I'm just getting 1GB of DDR2 667Mhz memory.

Broadway Com Corp 82-4HL Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 500W Power Supply - Retail
Item #: N82E16811162027
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy
      $44.99
   

   
Foxconn FV-N76SM3DT GeForce 7600GS 512MB GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail
Item #: N82E16814186007
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

   $35.00 Mail-in Rebate
   $129.99
   
   

[ur=http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16820150048l]BUFFALO Select 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Desktop Memory Model D2U667C-1G/BR - Retail
[/url]Item #: N82E16820150048
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

   $20.00 Mail-in Rebate
   $94.99
   
   

ECS NFORCE 570 SLIT-A (V5.1) LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 570 SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Item #: N82E16813135026
Return Policy: Standard Return Policy

   -$5.00 Instant
$15.00 Mail-in Rebate
   $89.99
$84.99
   
   

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 Conroe 2.13GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6400 - Retail
Item #: N82E16819115004
Return Policy: Processors (CPUs) Return Policy

      $222.00


Any opinions, criticisms, or suggestions would be helpful.  I was hoping to keep the expense down as best as possible.  The total for what I've got so far is about $600+  Ideally, I'd like to keep it under 700ish.

Ste

I agree with JM on the NVIDIA.  I am just finishing up the fine tuning of a new system. I finally broke down and built one myself.  I learned a lot through trial and error... more error than trial actually.  My Gateway collapsed on January 1.  It was a little over 4 years old and had went through 3 power supplies, all through warranty.  That was my 3rd Gateway and my last.  I was determined to build my own this time.  Cheaper, and I get to decide the parts, not someone else.

My suggestions are these:

First, and foremost, pick out your video card before your power supply.  Some of these video cards won't run on a lower wattage power supply.  If it's not 600-700 watts, or more, the higher end cards won't work.  My first video card was an NVIDIA 7300.  I even asked the salesman at the store I went to if it would handle Sims 2.  "Oh definitely!" was what he told me.  Well, it didn't.  Never saw the blue screen of death on XP till I tried the 7300 in Sims 2.  After much testing I found I could play Sims 2 if I played less than max Sims in the house and lower rent housing... like starter homes.  If I put 8 Sims in the house and lots of decor, it crashed every time. NV4_DISP was the major error with some minor ones from Direct3D ... D3Derr_not available.  Luckily, Nvidia Tech Support is 24/7 and I utilized a great many of those 24/7 hours too.  I asked the Techies if this 7300 was strong enough to handle Sims 2 and they all said "Yes".  Well, after doing a lot of searching on the Sims2.com site and realizing it wasn't just the 7300 that was having problems, I figured out the Techies didn't have a clue what Sims 2 was!  I was doing the beta testing and the techies were just agreeing with me when I called them.  I took the 7300 back and went straight to a Fry's Electronics store and started reading boxes and asking questions.  I ended up buying an ATI 1300 X16 PCIE from Visiontek. Their tech support isn't 24 hour but after one call I haven't needed them again. *knock on wood*  It's not the higher end Video card. Unfortunately, I don't have the $250+ to spend on a higher end power supply before I could buy a higher end graphics card.  But what I got works ok.  No more blue screens of death although I do have a touch of a graphics stripe but I think that's probably because I haven't updated the drivers to the latest off the Visiontek website. (I did at first, but my antivirus prg determined it was a virus and quarantined it! LOL!)  Make sure the video card you get is X16, PCIE, 512 mb, and 3D.

Second, pick out your motherboard before you do the case.  You also need to make sure that the power connector on the power supply matches the one on the motherboard you get.  Some are 20 pin, some are 24 pin.  If you can, get a power supply that's 20+4... that way,  you're set either way.  The power supply that you listed in the post (the one in the case) is 20 pin.  The motherboard lists 24 pin.  You can get a 20 to 24 pin adaptor but the guy at Fry's told me he wouldn't suggest converting and I agreed with him.  Too chancy.

Check to see how many ATA/PATA connectors is on the MB as well as how many SATA and how many USBs and memory slots.  Making room for expansion for the next 4 years or however long you want your new system to last is important.  Also, how many drives are you going to put in that case... count bays.   I'm sure you are very knowledgeable enough to do all of that without me noting it but these new motherboards are just plain weird.  SATA and PCIE are confusing to us ATA/PATA folks and since ATA and PCIE aren't interchangeable, you need to be doubly aware.

Do you need all of those fans?  IMO, you bet.  Many of the upper end video cards even have a fan on them now.  I have 3 on my tower, (not including any on cards or the MB) only 2 hooked up though, but I could have the 3rd hooked up in a minute.  Keep in mind that additional power may cause additional 'tremors' or rattling of your new tower so be ready for new noises.   Tighten anything tightenable before you start piecing together your system.   And, the more bells and whistles you get on your tower means that many more bells and whistles to cause problems and drain juice from your power supply.

Also check to see how the cards are held in the tower.  Some of the new clips are plastic and not all that 'secure'.  If you have a large electronics store near you it might be best to get some hands-on browsing of those cases before you make up your mind.  What you see in a JPG on the net isn't always what you get when you open the box. (As I'm sure you know.)


I hope this helps and good luck with your new system!


TX


Here's what I ended up putting in my system: (for now, any way)

Tower:  Thermaltake Soprano - http://www.thermaltake.com/xaserCase/soprano/bns/bns.htm

Power Supply:  Allied 400W - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817154013

Motherboard: Intel D102GGC2 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813121031&ATT=13-121-031&CMP=OTC-Froogle

CPU - Intel Pentium D 2.66 GHz Duo Core

Visiontek ATI Radeon X1300 512MB GDDR-2 at 533 MHz, 450 MHz VPU (Lifetime warranty) -- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814142081

Memory: 1 GB of Kingston - expandable up to 2 GB


(If the links don't work... sorry... not used to posting... especially links. 

[dizzy]

ATI definitely has the better hardware but if you ever want to use a *real* OS, nVidia would be better, driver-wise. 

[syberspunk]

@TXSundown:

Thanks for the info.  Definitely very helpful.  I'm gonna have to go back and rethink and rekajigger some of my choices...

ATI definitely has the better hardware but if you ever want to use a *real* OS, nVidia would be better, driver-wise. 

Ok... so if I narrow the choices down to these four, what would you recommend?

I'm leaning towards the HIS Hightech, just cuz it's got that huge built in fan on it.  Plus, it's got a rebate.  3 of those have rebates, and one of them I threw in cuz it had a faster memory clock speed, but a slightly slower core clock speed.  I was just wonderin if the faster memory clock speed makes any significant difference.

As for going with a *real* OS, meh.  I don't want to have to deal with configuring any kind of *nix system.  I absolutely hate hardware, and I would rather deal with the bloatware that is Windows XP just to be able to "simply" plug 'n play.  Maybe... if I ever get to it... I'll turn my old machine into a *nix box to fark around with.  But for now, I don't want to have to deal with emulators and anything else that might just be too complicated for me or too time consuming for me.  Building a machine from scratch is too much effort as it is. I just want to be able to assemble things and have Sims up and running ASAP.

Ste

[TXSundown]

The Sapphire has great (and numerous) reviews but don't believe everything you read in reviews.  They are easily padded.  What I'd suggest is this:

* Do google searches for reviews on the cards you have as finalists.

* Go to www.thesims2.com and hit the community forum and do 90 day+ searches there too.  Find out what the Simmers have to say.  They have the 'experience' with the cards. Every Techie in the world can say "Oh definitely!  This card will work with Sims 2" but if they have never actually played Sims 2 on that card, they don't know.

* Find out the system requirements for each card.  Only one of those 4 shows System Requirements (most specifically what wattage of PS is required) and that raises a flag for me.

[KatEnigma]

I 3rd the ATI thing. If you ever want to go into "real" gaming  the ATI card will still work great. If you get an Nvidia card, you'll probably need newer drivers, and then you'll have to choose between playing Sims or playing game X unless Maxis figures out how to code.

I have always had Sapphire cards, and liked them. I've never heard of HIS Hitech... doesn't mean the card isn't good, but not all card manufacturer's are created equal.  Of those 4, I'd probably go for the diamond.

Also, the memory you picked has a latency that's way higher than anything I'd pick. (okay, that's why I stick with DDR instead of DDR2 to begin with) but you'll be happier with This OCZ one   From a more reliable and respected company with a real lifetime guarantee (and great customer service that I had to use)

I also don't know how much difference it really makes to you, but the Asus boards have AMAZING schematics and diagrams that come with them. Personally, if it were me, I'd go with This Open Box one and trust their respected refurb department and return policy to get more bang for my buck, but then I love Open Boxes  and can understand that not everyone is willing to accept the possible hassle that can bring with it. 

[Hegelian]

Some observations:

If you don't want to go into hardware-geek mode, I suggest sticking with established brands known to offer quality products. Here are some suggestions (not exhaustive) based on what I would buy for myself if I were buying today:

Case:  Antec or Cooler Master. I've had good experiences with both. Case fans are your friends; 120 mm fans move more air with less noise than 80 mm fans. You need to be careful with cheap cases; often the internal layout can be poor if you have a lot of stuff to put in it, cooling can be poor, and edges can be sharp. Also, a quality power supply might not fit. Chances are the power supply in the case you linked won't deliver more than about 60% of its rated power at normal operating temperatures.

Power supply:  Very important! I get all my power supplies from PC Power & Cooling. A little more expensive, but rugged and reliable, with the best voltage regulation available. Buy your power supply after you have your case, motherboard, and video card to ensure you get the right combination of connectors, and go for a model with voltage regulation within 3% (1% is better). Although the new CPUs draw less power, the new graphics boards draw more, plus you have multiple hard drives and CD/DVD drives. I think a quality PSU of at least 500W is the minimum; 650W would probably be better.

Motherboard:  For an Intel CPU, I would get an Intel motherboard with the P965 chipset. Intel boards may not have all the tweaker features of some 3rd-party boards, but they are rock-solid and, of course, the chipset is a perfect match for your CPU. In my view, SLI is marketing gimmick that is a waste of money for anyone other than hard-core first-person-shooter players (are you going to add water cooling too?).

Among 3rd-party brands, I've had good results with Abit and Soyo; not so good with ASUS and Gigabyte. ASUS has horrendous (i.e., non-existent) customer support. MSI (formerly known as Micro-Star) has developed a good reputation among gamers; Epox is well-regarded in Europe.

Make sure the motherboard has the right kind of connectors for everything you want to put in your PC. If your existing hard drives are IDE drives, you may not be able to find a current high-performance board that will support all four. You may need to migrate some of your data to SATA drives (moving entirely to new 3GB SATA drives would not be a bad idea anyway). Now that I think about it, I realize that two IDE optical drives will use up the single IDE connector on most new boards, so your hard drives will have to be SATA.   

Get a board that supports an FSB of 1066/800 MHz for maximum future-proofing, and also go for DDR2 800 memory support.

If buying today I would probably go for the Intel DP965LTCK (~$115). Even if I were to choose a different brand, I would still go with the P965 chipset. A non-Intel board might give you more IDE connectors (the Abit IB9 P965 Express ATX, for example, has two). I can't see mating an Intel CPU with an nVidia chipset.

RAM:  Be sure the RAM you buy is compatible with your motherboard. Stay away from the cheap stuff; Crucial, Corsair, Kingston, and OCZ are reputable. I buy my RAM direct from Crucial, using their "Memory Advisor" tool. If you're going to get a Dual-Channel enabled motherboard, you may as well get Dual-Channel RAM (installed in pairs). For the Intel board I recommend above, Crucial suggests two 1-GB sticks of DDR2 PC2-4200 RAM (533 MHz) for $190 (http://www.crucial.com/store/mpartspecs.aspx?mtbpoid=15FFBEBAA5CA7304). A 2-GB kit at 667 MHz is $199, and 800 MHz is $309. Note that this particular board requires 1.8v modules.

Graphics board:  For TS2, ATi is the ticket. At the moment, the best bang for the buck in a PCI-E board is probably the Sapphire Radeon X1950GT 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 (model 100199L) for around $160. For an extra $15 you can get Sapphire's X1900 GT, which ups the memory speed from 1200 MHz to 1314 and the core clock from 500 MHz to 512. Actually, at the moment the Sapphire X1950 Pro is the best value with a $20 rebate that takes the final price down to $165 (memory clock = 1400 MHz; core clock = 580 MHz).

The X1600 boards are hobbled by a 128-bit memory interface (compared to 256-bit), and the 512 MB boards use slower DDR2 instead of DDR3 for the 256 MB boards. Don't waste your money on the 512 MB of video RAM (few games take advantage of it)--what you want is 256 MB RAM using a 256-bit interface (like the X1950 GT I list above).

FWIW I am running two Sapphire boards (X800 GT; X800 GTO) and one MSI board (9800 Pro), all AGP. I've had no problems, although I did need to exchange the first X800 GT I bought.

Sound:  Don't forget sound! An inexpensive (<$50) Soundblaster Audigy 4 or X-Fi (if you don't need a joystick port) will give you much better sound (you have replaced the in-game music with .wav or mp3 rips, right?) and offload the sound processing from the CPU.

[syberspunk]

Thank you Hegelian!  I was actually going to pm you last night, but then I figured I'll draw out more people and more opinions by posting a public thread.

I have a few questions regarding your recommednations (which I am totally thankful for! )

Motherboard:  For an Intel CPU, I would get an Intel motherboard with the P965 chipset. Intel boards may not have all the tweaker features of some 3rd-party boards, but they are rock-solid and, of course, the chipset is a perfect match for your CPU. In my view, SLI is marketing gimmick that is a waste of money for anyone other than hard-core first-person-shooter players (are you going to add water cooling too?).

I am totally unfamiliar with hardware terms and such.  By P965 chipset, I assume this is a type? Is this different than the Core 2 Duo? Or just a type of Core 2 Duo? Like... there are different chipsets under the overall Core 2 Duo set?

With regards to water cooling, would I actually need water cooling?


Also... what are your feelings with regards to AMD.  I cross posted on a couple of other boards, and someone recommended that AMDs are better than Intel, and that the Core 2 Duo actually aren't really Dual cores like they are supposed to be.  I vaguely recall browsing through one of the comparison guides you posted linked to Tom's Hardware... and I thought one of the latest comparison articles said that the new Intel chipset was actually really good.  Now I'm all confused again, and I don't know whose recommendations I should trust.

Graphics board:  For TS2, ATi is the ticket. At the moment, the best bang for the buck in a PCI-E board is probably the Sapphire Radeon X1950GT 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 (model 100199L) for around $160. For an extra $15 you can get Sapphire's X1900 GT, which ups the memory speed from 1200 MHz to 1314 and the core clock from 500 MHz to 512. Actually, at the moment the Sapphire X1950 Pro is the best value with a $20 rebate that takes the final price down to $165 (memory clock = 1400 MHz; core clock = 580 MHz).

The X1600 boards are hobbled by a 128-bit memory interface (compared to 256-bit), and the 512 MB boards use slower DDR2 instead of DDR3 for the 256 MB boards. Don't waste your money on the 512 MB of video RAM (few games take advantage of it)--what you want is 256 MB RAM using a 256-bit interface (like the X1950 GT I list above).

Ahh... Ok... so what about memory and core clock speed.  Do they really make a significant difference?

Sound:[/b]  Don't forget sound! An inexpensive (<$50) Soundblaster Audigy 4 or X-Fi (if you don't need a joystick port) will give you much better sound (you have replaced the in-game music with .wav or mp3 rips, right?) and offload the sound processing from the CPU.

Sound? Well... I suppose I could get a cheapo card.  I figured I'd wait until later, cuz I actually don't really listen to the music that much.  In fact, I have it turned down or and some of the effects muted, because I have a tendency to watch TiVO while I Sim.   And I haven't bothered to replace any of the in-game music because I find it all stupidly amusing.

Ste

[Hegelian]

Hi Ste,

It's all pretty simple if you don't dig too far down into the engineering details.   

Chipsets:  The CPU does the math. The supporting chipset handles data transfers, memory access, I/O requests (hard drives, optical drives, etc.), various ports (serial, parallel, USB), and any other "on board" parts (networking functions are usually handled by separate chips). Each CPU has a supporting chipset; conversely, each chipset supports only certain CPUs or CPU families. The major providers of chipsets are Intel (Intel CPUs only), VIA, SiS, Ali/ULi (now owned by nVidia and presumably the source of nVidia's chipsets), nVidia, and, recently ATi (now owned by AMD).

Historically, Intel has had the best chipsets and chipset drivers. Most of the others have gone through periods of poor performance and/or drivers; of the older companies, only VIA has overcome this. SiS and ALi have largely offered products to avoid, although you often saw them in budget systems. There was a time long ago when AMD provided its own chipset for its CPUs, but for many years now the only option for AMD CPUs has been third-party chipsets, with VIA being the preferred provider. Recently, nVidia has had good success with its chipsets for Athlon CPUs, although not without driver problems (big surprise, huh?).

Intel numbers its chipsets in families, with three-digit numbers along with letters indicating feature sets—G for built-in graphics; P for performance, Q for business, etc. My first Intel chipset was the i440BX for PII and PIII—a classic in the industry. The 8xx series of chipsets was for the Pentium 4; the early ones (i850) required expensive RAMBUS memory. My current machine uses a P4 2.8 GHz CPU on a 400 MHz front-side bus, in an Intel motherboard with the 845PE chipset.

Generally speaking, Intel's recent chipsets have followed the convention of x45 = budget, x65 = mainstream, x75 = high performance (examples:  P865 and P875 for Prescott P4s; P965/P975 for Core 2 Duo). x75 chipsets are usually not worth the price premium for most users; the x65 chipsets are a better value (for example, Abit's 975X motherboard is $200 at Newegg).

Intel P965: Roundup Recap and Awards

You can use an Intel CPU with an appropriate chipset from another company—and I think you need to use a motherboard with an nForce chipset if you want nVidia SLI, or one of ATi's CrossFire chipsets if you want the ATi version of SLI, but unless you're heavily into Oblivion or first-person shooters, dual graphics boards are an unnecessary extravagance.

In short, you need to buy a motherboard with a chipset that supports your CPU, and load the drivers for it. Intel chipsets have driver support in Windows, but after installing those (it's part of the Windows installation), you'll want to go to Intel's Web site and get the most recent chipset updater. If you have a chipset from another provider, you will probably need to install the chipset drivers from the driver CD during the Windows installation or download the current drivers from the appropriate Web site.

* * * * * * * * *

The speed of the front-side bus dictates the maximum speed of your CPU and RAM (of course, you can go lower than the specified FSB, but you can't go higher without getting into overclocking). If you're going to buy a new motherboard, you may as well get the fastest one you can afford, if only for potential future upgrades. Basically, the CPU clock and memory clock operate at multiples of the FSB clock (which itself is a multiple of the quartz clock mounted on the motherboard). Clock speeds are designated in terms of frequency (MHz) or cycles per second (the same thing, really). Processor speed boils down to how many instructions can be executed per clock cycle, and how many cycles can be crammed into one second. 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

The memory and core clock speeds of graphics cards aren't something to agonize over, but as you might expect faster clocks translate into faster performance (although how large the difference needs to be before you see a difference in your game is something I can't answer). For a given amount of money, faster clocks are a better buy than slower clocks; DDR3 is a better buy than DDR2; and 256 megabytes of RAM with a 256-bit data interface (the data path between the graphics processor and the graphics board's memory) is better than 512 megabytes of RAM with a 128-bit data interface (a 256-bit interface transfers twice as much data per clock cycle). In terms of value, you're better off spending a little more to get the 256-bit interface, which will have a larger impact on game performance than 512 MB vs. 256 MB of video RAM.

IMO you will see a significant performance increase with graphics boards in the $160-200 range compared to boards in the $100-130 range, and I think the extra cost is worth it. Over the past couple years, the sweet spot for performance-per-dollar has been around $160-180, and the Sapphire X1950 Pro at $165 after rebate slots right in there as probably the best value (today, in the U.S.). To me, this is a slam-dunk. 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Some people treat computer hardware as a religion (think Mac users). That seems stupid to me. A year ago, I would have recommended an Athlon system, but since then Intel has flexed its engineering muscle and produced a line of CPUs that outperform by a significant margin its own older products and those from AMD. Until AMD releases CPUs on its new architecture, Intel is the performance and price leader. Anyone who is currently recommending an Athlon CPU on the grounds that it is a better performer than an equivalent Core 2 Duo CPU is in denial.

The stuff about Core 2 Duo not being a "real" dual-core design is a red herring. The first multi-core desktop CPUs from Intel (Pentium D) were really just two Prescott P4s stuck on a single "package" (the chip you stick on your motherboard) and sort of patched together. The Core 2 Duo design is two separate processor cores that share some components of the package (such as the Level 2 cache). I think it's safe to say that the Conroe CPUs are significantly more advanced than anything AMD currently has in the retail channel.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

As far as using your current hard drives (you'll probably need to do a clean installation of Windows and all your applications, since you'll be changing chipsets), even if they are IDE (ATA) and your motherboard has only one or two IDE sockets, you can still use them with a PCI drive controller like the  Promise ULTRA133TX2. You would connect your boot drive and the hard drive with your paging file to the motherboard IDE connector; your two other hard drives to one of the connectors on the PCI card; and two optical drives to the other connector on the PCI card (don't mix hard drives and optical drives on the same cable). Ideally, you would have the boot drive as the master drive on one cable and the drive on which you've placed the paging file as the master drive on a different cable (with IDE/ATA, only one drive on a cable can transfer data at a time), but since the on-board controller is probably significantly faster than a PCI controller, it would probably be faster to have both these drives connected to the motherboard controller. You could have your apps on the drives connected to the PCI controller to minimize the number of "simultaneous" transfers involving the drive with the paging file.

There are cheaper IDE controllers out there, but Promise is a top brand in this field and the cheap ones may not accept optical drives.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The water-cooling question was a joke. If you're going to install two hot graphics boards in your PC, are you going to water-cool it too? And what about your electric bill??   

[syberspunk]

Once again, Hegelian, Thank you!

* syberspunk smashes the thanks button repeatedly.

That was a wonderful, thorough breakdown, of which I almost understood everything. Hehe. Seriously tho, I'm not a hardware geek, but I really do appreciate that you've done all the foot/homework and managed to summarize it in a dummy's version for me.  It is definitely helpful, and it seems like I will have to be a lot more careful and considerate than my original plan, which was just to scour the site, choose all the parts in one sitting according to what "looks" good, and buying them all in one shot.

I will definitely take your advice to heart.  Now... more questions... In response to this:

Intel P965: Roundup Recap and Awards

<snip>

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Some people treat computer hardware as a religion (think Mac users). That seems stupid to me. A year ago, I would have recommended an Athlon system, but since then Intel has flexed its engineering muscle and produced a line of CPUs that outperform by a significant margin its own older products and those from AMD. Until AMD releases CPUs on its new architecture, Intel is the performance and price leader. Anyone who is currently recommending an Athlon CPU on the grounds that it is a better performer than an equivalent Core 2 Duo CPU is in denial.

The stuff about Core 2 Duo not being a "real" dual-core design is a red herring. The first multi-core desktop CPUs from Intel (Pentium D) were really just two Prescott P4s stuck on a single "package" (the chip you stick on your motherboard) and sort of patched together. The Core 2 Duo design is two separate processor cores that share some components of the package (such as the Level 2 cache). I think it's safe to say that the Conroe CPUs are significantly more advanced than anything AMD currently has in the retail channel.

I have cross posted on another board, and someone else provided me somewhat conflicting advice.  I would tend to trust you more... well... since I'm somewhat more familiar with you only just cuz I've been on MATY longer. Hehe. But... this is what he says:

That review is old, and smacks of Intel pay off. It benches only against socket 939 AMD chips, not the AM2 socket chips (the newer, faster, lower power AMD chips). Also, for practical computer use, AMD is still wiping intel all over the floor. AMD has two big things that make them vastly superior to Intels, that is capability, and stability.

Intel's dual cores are NOT true dual cores, the cores are linked and are interdependent. This means that they have issues running completely seperate threads, which is the actual purpose of dual core processors. AMD's feature true dual cores, which operate as entirely seperate processors, thusly giving them a massive edge in multi-processing. They don't have the speed of multi-threading that Intels do, but for practical purposes, multithreading is useless. And if you really must run big, hard core, multithreading apps, a quad dual core Opteron system will obliterate EVERYTHING.

His response was actually to an older article, but also from anandtech.  I have yet to read the articles myself; I will get around to it when I get home tonight. But once again, I'm unsure.  I plan to quote your post over on the other board and see what he has to say.  I hope you don't mind.  It's not that I don't trust either of you, but I am interested in getting as much information as possible, from varying points of view who seem like experts on the subject.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The water-cooling question was a joke. If you're going to install two hot graphics boards in your PC, are you going to water-cool it too? And what about your electric bill??   

OOOOOoooooooooooohhh... hee hee hee... huh? I don't get it. It's hard to tell nowadays what is considered "extreme" as far as cooling goes.  I've read about people literally melting their cards and/or mobos... and well, I vaguely recall Pescado claiming that he basically refridgerates his machine.  Or maybe it was one of the kludgers... I can't remember exactly.

Are you saying it is generally ludicrious for a sort of average/run of the mell gamers like me to need water cooling at all?  That, it's only something "hard-core" FPS gamers should even consider?  Or is it that... there's no such thing as water-cooling at all, in which case...    Silly me. I really am clueless when it comes to hardware. Previously, I was content to just order a pre-built machine from Dell to avoid the hassle.


Ste

[Stitches]

If you're an nVidia fan, you shouldn't give it up just for the Sims though. There are modded drivers that work quite well. I have both an ATi and an nVidia system and I prefer the nVidia system for games that use heavy 3-D rendering. God knows that Black and White 2 is choked on my ATi card.

[KatEnigma]

I saw an open box Sapphire X1900 on Newegg for $130 last night.  They were gone before my husband woke up this morning. LOL But he's getting me the x1650 XT and a new Zalman cooler to go with it for Valentine's Day instead.  For anyone who's not worried about pixel shaders, come Monday I'll have an X850 XT with the Zalman VF700 cooler on it that I'll sell cheap. (since I'm 100% sure I didn't keep the fan it came with) 

Anyway, yes there are water cooling systems, but they are expensive and only the hard core gamers and modders actually use them.

And Tom's Hardware came out with This article today, in which they give their recommendations for the best card in the various price ranges, and why. Down the line in all price ranges, ATI and Nvidia are neck and neck, with either a tie or one card slightly beating the other. At least until you get to the top range where ATI doesn't even have cards out yet.

[Hegelian]

I have cross posted on another board, and someone else provided me somewhat conflicting advice.  I would tend to trust you more... well... since I'm somewhat more familiar with you only just cuz I've been on MATY longer. Hehe. But... this is what he says:

Sounds like an AMD fanboy to me.   

Seriously, most of what he's talking about is irrelevant, even if AMD were "wiping intel all over the floor," which it isn't. In fact, AMD is losing money hand over fist because they can't charge enough for their current CPUs at their respective performance points (compared to Intel price and performance) to turn a profit. AMD's answer to the Core 2 Duo won't be on the market until late Q2 at the earliest, and it's at least a year away from matching Intel's new 45-nm fabrication process (AMD has just hired a guy from IBM to be its new head of manufacturing).

The stuff about not being a "true" dual-core is meaningless. It's been a while since I read about the specifics of the AMD architecture, and I'm not inclined to go look it up now, but it may be that AMD has a more unified architecture on their Athlon X2 CPUs (or perhaps less unified?) compared to Intel's current CPUs, but I have no doubt that you could find an Intel engineer that would give you a very convincing argument as to why Intel's design is superior.

"Intel's dual cores are NOT true dual cores, the cores are linked and are interdependent." Am I the only one who thinks this is a nonsensical statement? What does it matter that the cores are linked? That's what I want if I don't want one core sitting idle until I run an application that supports multi-processing (I don't think I have any of those, unless Photoshop is one). The Intel CPUs have two separate processor cores in one package that can talk to each other and share some resources. The knock against the first Intel dual-core CPUs was that they were just two stand-alone CPUs shoved together in one package—in other words, they were separate processors. This guy seems to be saying that the Intel processors are not "true" dual cores because they are not the same as having multiple, independent processors on one motherboard, like boards based on Intel's Xeon or AMD's Opteron CPUs. Well, duh! For quite some time now you've been able to buy motherboards with sockets for more than one Pentium CPU, and of course there are the Xeon multi-processor motherboards for CAD and server applications, but these never crossed over into the consumer market in large numbers because the number of Windows applications that could take advantage of multiple processors was quite limited. I'm not entirely certain that Windows XP even supports true multi-tasking on multiple processors. In any event,  I don't run any apps that use multi-processing, and you probably don't either. OTOH, you might have some apps that use multi-threading. "They [Athlons] don't have the speed of multi-threading that Intels do, but for practical purposes, multithreading is useless." Whatever.


"That review is old, and smacks of Intel pay off. It benches only against socket 939 AMD chips, not the AM2 socket chips (the newer, faster, lower power AMD chips)." What's he talking about? The review I linked was about the P965 chipset, and was hardly a rave.

"And if you really must run big, hard core, multithreading apps, a quad dual core Opteron system will obliterate EVERYTHING." Sorry, but there's much bigger iron out there than a quad-core Opteron. IBM, HP, and others make systems that accept multiple multi-core processors (including quad-core Xeons), not to mention various Unix workstations from other manufacturers.

Are you saying it is generally ludicrious for a sort of average/run of the mell gamers like me to need water cooling at all?  That, it's only something "hard-core" FPS gamers should even consider?  Or is it that... there's no such thing as water-cooling at all, in which case...   

There is such a thing as water cooling, but unless you either overclock your CPU and front-side bus, and/or graphic board (there are water coolers for GPUs now), or just like to mess with your hardware, there's no need for it. At stock speeds in a well-ventilated case, the stock heatsinks and fans that come with a CPU or graphics board are sufficient (although you might find it reasonable to replace the heatsink/fan assembly on your graphics board with one that provides more cooling with less noise, like those from Arctic Cooling).

I saw an open box Sapphire X1900 on Newegg for $130 last night.  They were gone before my husband woke up this morning. LOL But he's getting me the x1650 XT and a new Zalman cooler to go with it for Valentine's Day instead.  For anyone who's not worried about pixel shaders, come Monday I'll have an X850 XT with the Zalman VF700 cooler on it that I'll sell cheap.

Are you sure you're going to get a performance boost from the X1650 compared to the X850? The X850 XT is a high-end part, whereas the X1650 XT is a mid-range part. Let's look at the specs (X850 first, X1650 second):

                                 X850XT    X1650XT
Memory (MB):                256         256
Memory Type:               GDDR3     GDDR3
Memory Interface:          256-bit    128-bit
Memory Clock (MHz):      1080       1350
GPU Clock (MHz):            520         575
Pixel Pipelines:                16           12
Pixel Shader Processors:  16           24

The X1650 has a modest advantage in memory clock, and a small advantage in GPU clock. The extra shaders look good, but the X850 has more pixel pipelines, which may be more important for overall game performance. OTOH, the X850 has a 256-bit memory interface, which could offset (or better) the clock speed advantage of the X1650.

We all need to choose our priorities. For my part, the expected performance gain from the X1650 XT (if there even is one) is not worth the cost of buying a new graphics board. IMO you need to go to the X1900-series to get a sufficient performance boost to justify the cost of replacing the X850 XT.   

[KatEnigma]

I'm not really needing or expecting a big power boost, since nothing I regularly run requires more power in itself, but I need the extra pixel shaders.  I'm not getting what I'd like out of even Age of Empires III, let alone Medieval II. For the price, I'd have gotten the x1950 if I could, but unfortunately it's just out of my price range. Worst case scenario, I will only see a difference in the games that rely heavily on the pixel shaders. Since I don't run at high resolutions, it edges out the Nvidia 7600 GT, and without those pesky driver issues.  Is that enough to justify the $110? For me, yes. I paid about twice that for my card in the first place only 13 short months ago, and was happy to get that good a deal on it. If I were a patient person, I'd wait for the prices to drop again, and get the x1950 but I'm not, so I'll pay the price for that. *shrug*  The real downside seems to be that it's pretty power hungry.  I guess it's a good thing I have that 530w power supply after all.

Edit: The Sapphire card ends up faster than the numbers ATI gave you anyway. (they seem to more closely match the numbers for the Asus boards) The Sapphire card gets

                               X1650XT
Memory (MB):              256
Memory Type:              GDDR3
Memory Interface:        128-bit
Memory Clock (MHz):     1490
GPU Clock (MHz):          594

They also claim to have 16 pixel pipelines and 8 vertex pipeline vs 16 and 6 on the X850XT. Newegg has it listed as 24 total (or 16+8), definitely not 20 , as do all the review sites. I'm not sure why ATI's numbers aren't matching what everyone else says it has, although they also say 24 total  Typo? 



As for the other argument, I've loved and supported AMD for years. I'm running an X2 right now, but if I were in the market for a new machine today, I'd go with a Duo. It's just the nature of the business- in some years Intel was way ahead, in others AMD was way ahead, and a lot of times they were pretty equal. What AMD really had going for it for a decade, however, was the fact that Intel chips were so much more expensive. Intel finally gave up on concentrating on the frequency and managed to produce an excellent chip at a much cheaper price than they ever had before. AMD has had problems adjusting to this. Right now, AMD isn't really even in the game. Just like the Pentium D wasn't in the game, compared to the x2. In 6 months, that may change, but the truth is right now, Intel is King. It's nothing personal, it's just fact.  I hope that AMD comes back with a processor that knocks Intel for a loop, I truly do. If nothing else, it's good for the consumer to have some healthy competition between them, as it keeps innovation up and prices down. 

[ZiggyDoodle]

Here's the Maxis/EA report on Vista and the game:  http://thesims2.ea.com/help/detail.php?help_id=281

[Hegelian]

I'm not really needing or expecting a big power boost, since nothing I regularly run requires more power in itself, but I need the extra pixel shaders.  I'm not getting what I'd like out of even Age of Empires III, let alone Medieval II.

If the extra pixel shaders are something that will give you a real improvement in a performance/appearance area that is important to you, I certainly wouldn't attempt to discourage you from making that purchase.   

I don't think it is unusual for third-party vendors to soup up their Radeon boards, especially models that have been on the market for a while and may have a newer GPU than on the original product (this happened with some models of the X800GT/GT0). This sometimes allows the adventurous to "unlock" features of the ‘new' GPU that were reserved for that GPU's original intended (and more expensive) board. For example, I have 16 pixel pipes on (in?) my Sapphire X800 GTO (specified for 12 pipes), as well as a slight clock increase in the BIOS.

Also, you can overclock the RAM and GPU using something like ATI Tool or Sapphire's Trixx utility (for Sapphire boards only, I believe).

[syberspunk]

Alright, after much debate and gathering advice from various people and places, I have come up with another list of parts.  I was wondering if anyone would like to take a look at the following, and let me know what you think:

COOLER MASTER Centurion 534 RC-534-KKN2-GP Black Aluminum & Mesh bezel / SECC Chassis ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

EVGA 256-P2-N624-AR GeForce 7900GS 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 KO Video Card - Retail

Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-500 ATX12V 500W Power Supply 115/230 V TUV, UL, CUL, CE, CB, FCC - Retail

CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Retail

ABIT IB9 LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 Conroe 2.13GHz 2M shared L2 Cache LGA 775 Processor - Retail



I had trouble deciding between these Graphics Cards.

I was also not sure what to decide between these sets of RAM.  I'm looking for dual channel with a total of 2 GB (2 x 1GB).


Once again, I'd appreciate any recommendations, criticisms, or suggested alternatives.

Ste

[KatEnigma]

The XFX DD3 card would be the fastest.

For RAM, the Corsair with the 4-4-4-12 speed would be the fastest.

[Giggy]

It seems like a solid system, although I'd go with an ATI instead, if your main interest is simming. Nvidia graphics cards seems to be linked to repeated problems.

I own an nvidia and it's fine, its just the graphics card
gotta love 81.98

Edit: opps didn't read the whole of the post

[syberspunk]

The XFX DD3 card would be the fastest.

I was told that I wouldn't really be able to notice the difference.  Especially not with the Sims.  Would the speed really matter?

For RAM, the Corsair with the 4-4-4-12 speed would be the fastest.

For the mobo I chose (and for many of them on newegg actually), there is a notice regarding the features:

Notice: Only DDR2-800 memory supporting JEDEC approved 1.8V operation with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 is supported on Intel Desktop Boards based on Intel 965 Express Chipsets.


Does this mean that... I can only use DDR2 800 memory that is 1.8V with timings of 5-5-5 or 6-6-6 (ack, EVIL!) only? Or... that is like the recommended bare minimum and I can use memory with higher voltage and "better" timing? I assume then, by your post, that the 4-4-4 is better/faster?

Thanks.

Ste

[Solowren]

I'm saving all this information for when I decide to get a new computer.

[SaraMK]

This thread really is useful. I'm going to be building my own computer some time this year, so I need all the advice I can get. I'm just sick of even the most customizable PC's out there not having the exact combo of features I want, and coming with a boatload of crappy programs that I'll never use (but will be paying for).

[nekonoai]

is pqi memory any good? or cheaply made?