Patch is out for FFS

[cheriem]

Well said ladies!!    Jordi that was not called for!

[neriana]

Americans are basically retarded, so they come across as 12-year olds to the civilized world.

Hi, American with 142 IQ here. I have seen absolutely NO difference on the internet between  the intelligence of Americans and the intelligence of anyone else. Everyone's an ass, but some more so than others. Good job putting yourself in the "more so" category. As for civilized, it's generally not considered terribly civilized to denigrate the intelligence of the citizens of an entire country.

If EA would actually hire enough people to do the work they demand, and treat them with a minimal level of decency, we most probably wouldn't have to deal with buggy, low-grade crap like FFS (Family Fun Stuff, that is, not Flying Fish Systems.) No, J.M., I don't think sweatshops are a legitimate way to do business .

Regarding the "piracy protection" garbage: first, it doesn't work. None of it does. Stardock recently released Galactic Civilizations 2 with NO piracy protection on the CD, because that protection alienates customers, is bugged to hell, and doesn't work. Instead, you have to register the game to get special content, and that content really is high-quality. They're a small company that actually knows how to do business; Galactic Civilizations 2 sold, and is selling, incredibly well, and very many people are buying it specifically because of Stardock's great customer service attitude. It's past time for giants like EA to wake up and smell dollars they're missing because of treating customers like criminals.

[cabelle]

Americans are basically retarded, so they come across as 12-year olds to the civilized world.

Actually Jordi you've contradicted your own statement. You've just proven with your rude remark that there are immature jerkwads everywhere, even in your country. 

[Ellatrue]

Regarding the "piracy protection" garbage: first, it doesn't work. None of it does. Stardock recently released Galactic Civilizations 2 with NO piracy protection on the CD, because that protection alienates customers, is bugged to hell, and doesn't work. Instead, you have to register the game to get special content, and that content really is high-quality. They're a small company that actually knows how to do business; Galactic Civilizations 2 sold, and is selling, incredibly well, and very many people are buying it specifically because of Stardock's great customer service attitude. It's past time for giants like EA to wake up and smell dollars they're missing because of treating customers like criminals.

Back in the day, Maxis released Sim Life like that... sigh

[J. M. Pescado]

Stupid people are everywhere. Americans just make it more obvious because there's more of them and they're culturally conditioned to be more shameless about it.

I see dumb people! They're everywhere, they walk around just like everyone else, they don't even know they're dumb!

[Nec]

Stupid people are everywhere. Americans just make it more obvious because there's more of them and they're culturally conditioned to be more shameless about it.

And this is exactly the reason everyone should never leave their home unless it is absolutely imperative!

[MutantBunny]

I see dumb people!

LOL!

Or the twisted version: "I touch dumb people"

[Mike]

I see dumb people! They're everywhere, they walk around just like everyone else, they don't even know they're dumb!

Sadly, being dumb is embraced. Smart kids are called nerds and get beat with sticks.

[neriana]

I see dumb people!

LOL!

Or the twisted version: "I touch dumb people"

Eww.

Even smart people learn to hide their smarts in public school in America if they want to survive. I still haven't seen Americans be any dumber than any other people on the internet. When I think back to the most stupid, most obnoxious people I've met in cyberspace, I think Africans and South Americans are the only people who have any right to feel superior. There are dumb people everywhere.

[ElfPuddle]

are dumb people everywhere.

*looks around what appears to be an empty room*
There are? So, if I'm the only one here, then that means... ...I think I'll invite the neighbors over. 

[BeckerCheez]

o_0 *is glad she didn't get involved in discussion 

[MaxoidTom]

Are you still upset about that?  I made a simple comment about piracy and it got a little blown out of proportion.  Whether or not the shopping packs are worth the money is up to you all to decide (and it seems your decision has been made).  I apologize for contributing to the flame war and will try not to get pulled into such things again.  It's just very tough seeing people bash the thing you spent many many late nights working to create.  Again, my apologies.

Upset over arguing with you?? Oh hell no. Upset over suffering consequences at MTS2 and S2C I shouldn't be made to suffer? A bit, yes. And our 'argument' was a bit more than as you state here "a simple comment that got out of hand". But whatever. I don't want to argue again. BTW, I never considered it a 'flame' Did you?? Were you flaming me in any way? if so I missed it. And I didn't flame you either--Maxis as a whole  maybe....yes, ok. I have formed the opinion that as a goup, a whole, Maxis lacks big time. I hate to see it because I loved the sims. And I would again, but Maxis, as a whole, is screwing them up. JM, Numenor, Inge, SimPE crew, hundreds of names to type out continue to fix the Sims and make them still fun. Having to deal with bugs, glitches, and screwups that require hard work and start overs and patience while the great modders in this community 'fix' what Maxis broke with every EP is way way old.

Gotta love JM and his standing right up and voicing what he did above. Hats off, big bow.

If Maxis would... what get more funding to hire more talented coders? take their time? beta test? all the above? fill in the blank? And put out a GOOD EP they'd have us all over again. Don't see it happening.... Another big step in the right direction: Make it ADULT rated as it should be to rake in the bucks

I, for one, am glad to see you coming out of hiding. Hopefully, you can take the heat and hang in here. Threads DO get heated as they tend to do for a good give and take on any subject. Makes for good reading and educated choice making.

I'll just say it is easy to criticize things and much harder to actually do those things.  I come to these boards because I am interested in what the community thinks, even though I'm not officially on the Sims 2 projects any longer.  Most of the time it's fine, but it gets very tiring when people complain that:

a.) We/I suck and are horribly incompetent
b.) We obviously didn't test the game because there are bugs, we didn't include this feature that you believe is necessary, etc.
c.) We charge too much
d.) We didn't include enough "stuff"

Just telling you how I feel, whether you believe it is whining or not.  As to hiding, well, you can call it what you want.  I call it doing something else, like working on my new project.

However, I do feel that you have every right to complain or rant about the game, Maxis, EA, etc. because you are the consumer.  If you bought it, complain all you want.  It's when the attacks get personal that, well, you know.

[syberspunk]

I'm sure many of are grateful (at least I am) that you still take interest in our opinions and that you have actively been participating in several forums across the community. Personally, I haven't played many PC games and thus, I haven't been active myself on any online community revolving around a game until TS2. So I guess I'm somewhat amazed that a gaming company would have such 'personal contact' at all. Despite what Pescado may say, I still think it's great that you act as a sort of liason between the public (consumers) and the game developers. Having said that... with regards to this:

Most of the time it's fine, but it gets very tiring when people complain that:

a.) We/I suck and are horribly incompetent
b.) We obviously didn't test the game because there are bugs, we didn't include this feature that you believe is necessary, etc.
c.) We charge too much
d.) We didn't include enough "stuff"

I'm sorry that certain threads may deteriorate into personal attacks. That's an unfortunate consequence on the internet and posting on forums. You can never really tell what the actual tone of a post may have been, and things can easily be misinterpreted as being far more belligerent than was originally intended. I won't bother getting into a whole discussion about that, since it's been done before. I just want to apologize, for myself at least, if in anger, I have ever posted something that felt like a personal attack.

I think the problem is... the issues you have mentioned above feel true to most (if not all) of us, and we feel that it continues to be ignored everytime a new EP/SP is released. Many of us who are not in the industry aren't really aware of all the pressure that may come down from above, so to speak, with regards to enforcing deadlines, which leads to releasing games that we feel were just not ready yet, as far as quality goes. I think we hear a lot of negative things and complaints more so than positive things, because as Pescado points out, many of us feel that "Thanks, this is great" type responses aren't very helpful or serve as constructive criticism as far as improving future products. Many of us here feel that type of praise is reserved for the 'sheep' who just accept things naively and tend to turn a blind eye to serious bugs and scream bloody murder when it comes to using hacks. I think it's quite obvious that the much more well-informed user knows better than to simply blame problems on hacks alone, but I digress...

Getting back to the problem in general, I think that some of us tend to forget there are actual people behind developing these projects, and while we often try to make blanket statements that don't particularly focus on any one specific person or group, those of us who are not 'in the know' as far as what goes behind the scenes, kind of just generalize our comments towards EA and Maxis. I doubt that anyone here really holds you, specifically responsibles for any of the issues that we've encountered or that you've mentioned above. Unless you actually were responsible for any of those decisions.

However... on the other hand, as much as we tend to forget about the people involved making the games, I think that many of us feel that we, the consumers, are forgotten or ignored as well. Many of us might feel that, as 'loyal' or at least long-time fans of the game, we are being mistreated or taken advantage of due to the poor quality and quantity of content that is being released. Many of us feel that EA/Maxis (whomever is repsonsible ) is releasing stuff just to make a quick, greedy buck off of us because they know that we (or at least the 'sheep') will gladly and blindly purchase these things, gobbling it all up just because it has the 'Sims' name on it. Unfortunately, this irritates the rest of us, who aren't willingly to blindly accept these products that we feel exhibit poor quality that could have (relatively, seemingly) easily have been avoided.

In particular... with FFS, which should have only really contained new objects anyways, it seems ridiculous that think that a Shopping Pack would need a patch. And... it is quite evident that, regardless of whether or not this content was pulled from OFB and packaged separately to make even more money off of the consumers, it had to have at least been in development at the same time that OFB was still being worked on. With that in mind, and the fact that it barely had that much content to begin with, it strikes me as odd that there wasn't enough time to test FFS 'in-game' and discover some fairly significant bugs. Additionally, the excuse that there just wasn't enough time to test things falls short for some of us who would prefer that the games be delayed due to further testing and debugging rather than sticking to what seems like an insanely tight schedule anyways. Personally... I would rather have one solid EP, that is bug-free as possible, and still rich in content that is engrossing and enjoyable, rather that two EPs where we have to deal with the bugs from the new one, while still waiting for a patch that only ends up fixing half of the bugs from the first one.

Anyways... I apologize for presuming to speak for everyone. I'm sure there are many people who might disagree with what I have to say. I was just trying to generalize.

Ste

Edited to clarify some of the muddled grammar. I know it's not exactly perfect, and there are still plenty of run-on sentences, but that's what you get when you kind of type as you think, due to free flow of thought and what not.

[ElfPuddle]

Thank you, Syberspunk, for speaking for me. I've been trying to figure out how to express my issues with my favorite game. You did so very accurately and eloquently. Nicely done.

The only thing I would add is that those frustrations over bugs is why I don't jump in line to get the EPs. I didn't get NL until January, and I'll be getting OFB at the end of the month....that way my favorite modders have time to fix what the testers at Maxis/EA didn't.

[BlueSoup]

Ste, I basically feel the same way, only don't have the patience or the pretty words to put it quite like you.  

Also, MaxoidTom, I do appreciate that you still read forums to see what we, the consumers, feel about your product even if you don't work on it anymore.  However, seeing that you don't work on it anymore, is it safe to assume you pass on concerns that we voice, or that someone else on the Maxis team still responsible for The Sims 2 does?

[J. M. Pescado]

You know, it's interesting to note that studies have shown that the tone of an Internet message is usually interpreted as being what the tone WOULD have been had the interpreter written something like  it, and that the reader usually believes he has correctly interpreted the tone with a high degree of confidence.

Something worth considering: If somebody is interpreting something as a personal attack, whether or not it actually is, perhaps the attack is not entirely undeserved: After all, for someone to interpret it as a personal attack by the above, he has to implicitly believe he's guilty.

Food for thought.

[MutantBunny]

Astute observation JM. A clasic example of 'transference'. Where'd you read that? I'd like to read it too.

MaxiodTom: Sometimes the insults are deserved, on some level, and sometimes they aren't. Some days are diamonds, some days are turds.

It wasn't us that named you the 'HatedMaxiod', never read anyone say that about you, or any maxiod. I have only read as stated above, we are all glad to have you amongst us., we welcome your comments, arguementative or not Just as we all love Jm's sarcasm and wit.

I'm glad to hear you are off the Sims project, but only because: it HAS to be a relief.

[holly]

ok i havent read this thread before but i think its time to have my say

bugs in games really piss me off , its as lazy as sending out shoes with holes in , or a book with pages missing and in my mind totally unacceptable , and its the poor sods who for whatever reason dont have internet access but who do play the game, what about them? they cant download patches or other fixes. so they put up with maxis half finished shell of a game ,

and quite frankly you can fuck  stuff your many many late nights exactly what is it do you think your being paid for ?, cause its evidently not to put togeather a bug free ep that my god acutully works. and no its not nice to hear people bash your work but be honest its not like ffs is exactly anything to be proud off . and i like many others would not have gone beond the base game had it not been for people willing to "fix" the game for me ,

having to patch a game admits its faulty and once or twice i could probery cope with this , but its every fricken time an ep is sent out its lazy and amounts to poor workmanship , or sheer greed from maxis,


and as for marking 12year olds its not a good plan long term cause kids change there minds all the goddam time about what they like , and have no money of there own ,  people like me on the other hand have there  own money and no commitments such as husband kids ect and are old enough to have lasting intrests so come on maxis make your next ep worth our while

and yes im feeling irratable today ,

[Stitches]

ok i havent read this thread before but i think its time to have my say

bugs in games really piss me off , its as lazy as sending out shoes with holes in , or a book with pages missing and in my mind totally unacceptable , and its the poor sods who for whatever reason dont have internet access but who do play the game, what about them? they cant download patches or other fixes. so they put up with maxis half finished shell of a game ,

and quite frankly you can fuck  stuff your many many late nights exactly what is it do you think your being paid for ?, cause its evidently not to put togeather a bug free ep that my god acutully works. and no its not nice to hear people bash your work but be honest its not like ffs is exactly anything to be proud off . and i like many others would not have gone beond the base game had it not been for people willing to "fix" the game for me ,

having to patch a game admits its faulty and once or twice i could probery cope with this , but its every fricken time an ep is sent out its lazy and amounts to poor workmanship , or sheer greed from maxis,


and as for marking 12year olds its not a good plan long term cause kids change there minds all the goddam time about what they like , and have no money of there own ,  people like me on the other hand have there  own money and no commitments such as husband kids ect and are old enough to have lasting intrests so come on maxis make your next ep worth our while

and yes im feeling irratable today ,

Clearly you should be in charge of EA, Maxis, and the next EP.

</sarcasm>

[Pegasys]

Gawd, people, have some Grilled Cheese with your Whine.  As much as I may agree with many of your sentiments, I do get as tired of hearing it over and over as much as I get tired of hearing about how BBS'ers want PETZ.

I guess I have a different attitude, I don't get too hot and bothered because there are so many excellent (Thank You, This is Awesome) modders around fixing things that need fixing. In fact I posted something the other day to that effect to the BBS here.

I may rant for a short while, but then I play my game, or another one (lately Silent Hill 4 -- Maybe that's transference fighting all those bloody creatures )

[JenW]

I understand where Ste's coming from, but working in the computer industry myself and working closely with programmers (and married to one!) I know that these deadlines are often set by people with no real idea of how much work is involved in the product. These executives promise things to their superiors, often with unrealistic timeframes and then it's up to the lowly programmers to meet these dates. So guys like Tom work weekends and 16 hr days to make sure execs get their bonuses. Of course, being a gamer and consumer myself, I also want games that work and are as bug-free as possible.

So I can see both sides of the story here, and it's a really unfortunate situation any way you look at it.

[Stitches]

I understand where Ste's coming from, but working in the computer industry myself and working closely with programmers (and married to one!) I know that these deadlines are often set by people with no real idea of how much work is involved in the product. These executives promise things to their superiors, often with unrealistic timeframes and then it's up to the lowly programmers to meet these dates. So guys like Tom work weekends and 16 hr days to make sure execs get their bonuses. Of course, being a gamer and consumer myself, I also want games that work and are as bug-free as possible.

So I can see both sides of the story here, and it's a really unfortunate situation any way you look at it.

And add that people don't realize how complicated it is for a team of programmers to all work together as a collaborative effort. Programmers are just people. They make mistakes, they get disorganized, they have ego competitions, and they can't predict every scenario.

[MutantBunny]

I think most of us understand the pressures and shortcomings of different types of jobs. That doesn't make it acceptable to market crap. Crap is crap. Period.

If GM or Ford or Honda or BMW or Dell or Apple or Gap or Sears or who ever anywhere that makes stuff makes shitty stuff they get it returned. Federal consumer laws in the US: If it don't work within 30 days you can take it back if you have the receipt. Period. (and yes many businesses here don't want ppl knowing that but that IS the truth regardless of what they tell you at their return counter.)  However in the US we can't return crappy software. New corporate power. EA has, in effect, robbed us or at least many of us--over and over again and if we don't scream about online in the forums then we are saying, in effect, is "go ahead and don't kiss me first I don't care...".

Packs are crap and the first EP was almost crap and NL needed a patch fast and then needed the next patch too and so did OFB, still not really functional....when's the next patch for it? The next EP?? Tired of the obvious cycle....

[neriana]

I understand where Ste's coming from, but working in the computer industry myself and working closely with programmers (and married to one!) I know that these deadlines are often set by people with no real idea of how much work is involved in the product. These executives promise things to their superiors, often with unrealistic timeframes and then it's up to the lowly programmers to meet these dates. So guys like Tom work weekends and 16 hr days to make sure execs get their bonuses. Of course, being a gamer and consumer myself, I also want games that work and are as bug-free as possible.

So I can see both sides of the story here, and it's a really unfortunate situation any way you look at it.

And add that people don't realize how complicated it is for a team of programmers to all work together as a collaborative effort. Programmers are just people. They make mistakes, they get disorganized, they have ego competitions, and they can't predict every scenario.

I realize quite thoroughly how complicated the job is. "It's complicated" is not an excuse to not do it right. They aren't curing cancer. "We aren't given nearly enough time to do it right, or treated with any decency by management" IS an excuse, and it's not one anyone should have to make in any field. I don't blame the programmers. I blame the executives, who screw both programmers and consumers in their pursuit of quick cash. Quick, not long-term; their business model is bad for investors as well. Of course, anything that's bad for workers and consumers is bad for the average investor as well because it's bad for the economy, but anyway...

EA is a company with absolutely zero ethical standards. But frankly, until people stop buying their crap, nothing will change.

[Pegasys]

EA is a company with absolutely zero ethical standards. But frankly, until people stop buying their crap, nothing will change.

How do you know what kind of ethical standards EA has? Do you know what the current conditions are there, and what internal conditions they're working with or against? Have you worked there (or for any large company, for that matter) ?

Blanket statements like this (or those that denigrate an entire nation as a whole) always weaken the rest of the argument for me.