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Author Topic: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included  (Read 64500 times)
OpiumGirl
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What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« on: 2009 June 15, 03:24:45 »
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I really feel like traits are completely broken in this game.  Today I created a male Sim who was not too bad looking. I try to make all of my Sims very unique to one another so, there are some features that stand out more. While I was finishing him up, I decided to make a sister out of his present state so, while she would look similar to how he looks now, I would continue to work on him a bit to tone down certain features and add a few changes. So, I cloned him. Sweet Lordie. As you can see below, there is something terribly wrong.  I understand that in real life, certain traits don't translate well between sexes but, something just seems so off.  Look at the jaw and tiny nose on the woman.  It's just wrong. Everything just looks wrong. The fellow has a very normal jaw, even a little wider on the scale and yet, she shows up like this. 
Is there something wrong in the transition, bug-wise?  We all know it's hard to get non-fugly females but, this seems like a badly broken system.

I had some tweaks to get her to look normal and the most outstanding tweaks were jaw and nose. But, what about children in-game?  It seems like, if it's even possible, I'll be reworking every single Sim to make them non-hideous unless I intended them to be so. I do want some normal looking famblies, you know.  Roll Eyes

It this a feature or a bug? 

Normal Looking Guy:                                               


Feckin' Scary-ass Twin


Unfuglified With Some Work (which isn't possible once they are in-game)



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J. M. Pescado
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #1 on: 2009 June 15, 03:42:30 »
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Analogue-features are very poorly done in TS3 compared to their TS2 equivalents. As a result, pretty much ALL traits don't translate well. This is probably why the game resorts to parthenogenesis.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #2 on: 2009 June 15, 03:55:48 »
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Looks like a normal morph between sexes to me, except the brow was raised a bit much.  That was probably to compensate for the enlongation of the smaller face to match the larger one.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #3 on: 2009 June 15, 04:06:44 »
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its just cloning and sex change, that result was expected since its simply adjusting the facial structure from male to female.

Its not really attempting to create siblings that would be impossible without having to create their parents first (something that was just NOT DONE! in this experiment) in order for the genetic data to work with to actually exist.
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OpiumGirl
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #4 on: 2009 June 15, 04:29:14 »
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Nah, not at all as would be expected if we're following the trend of Sims 2 or even life iteself.  
I could make a female that looked semi-decent as a male in Sims 2.

It doesn't seem to matter in Sims 3 if you have two very good looking parents either, as your saying is the true test.  I have to say that the *real* way has yielded FAR worse results.  
Two very good looking parents have spawned hideous children in many a game. Not at all as it should be in life or otherwise. No way. It doesn't work this way OR the *real* test that you're talking about.
This was just a simple example.


I will add this here so I don't double post:
Here is a fine example of a nice family with traits gone wrong. Just what Pes said:


Father:




Mother:



Daughter:
« Last Edit: 2009 June 15, 05:05:32 by OpiumGirl » Logged
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #5 on: 2009 June 15, 05:38:16 »
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I'm not convinced on that kid. Many of my families have had fugly kids (ones that looked facially similar to yours, actually) that started as ugly ducklings and totally swanned out upon hitting YA or Teen. She looks like she'll grow into her features. I actually liked that some of them were awkward looking teens. I can provide screenshots upon request, but I'm going to assume by default that no one gives a crap. :p So, just wait until YA to see what's really going on, or do an editme (editsim?) cas preview.
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OpiumGirl
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #6 on: 2009 June 15, 05:40:49 »
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I will definitely get some screens of her as an adult.  Might take a few days, though.  Smiley

The bottom line for me is that it is very difficult to spawn nice looking sims from one another, by parent or twin.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen.  I'm sure some of you have struck it lucky but, as a rule, it just doesn't work. Plus, beauty is surely in the eye of the beholder. When someone says "Beautiful Sim, Lily" or "hot guy Trevor", 9.99999 times out of 10 it is a scary result, even though these pages are rife with comments like "he's so HOT" or "I MUST have her!".   Wink

 Sims 2 worked great for that sort of thing.  If you had a great looking family, the kids always looked great and if you had a not so beautiful family, the kids usually followed suit with the exception of a few in each direction. That was my experience and I bred all sorts of mixtures.  Cheesy

That's why I started this thread, because I honestly believe there may be something wrong. Like one 0 was supposed to be 1 a one in the codex hex thingie stuffs that only smart people understand. If you don't understand, then you're not smart.  Grin
« Last Edit: 2009 June 15, 05:54:50 by OpiumGirl » Logged
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #7 on: 2009 June 15, 05:46:36 »
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You could shift-clic, trigger age transition a couple of times, take pictures and exit without saving.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #8 on: 2009 June 15, 06:33:14 »
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See, I think your female sim looks fine.  But maybe that's just me.

I actually like getting the ugly-ass kids in the mix.  I normally have them do interesting things, unlike my perfect beautiful sims, who all marry each other and have babies.  For instance, I had a set of twins where one was gorgeous and one was fat and ugly.  Gorgeous chick married a gorgeous guy and now they have twins and are living in some super cute house on the beach.  Ugly chick turned lesbian, adopted two babies, cheated on her wife then kicked her out, and became the top in the Criminal career.  I actually like playing the ugly chick more.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #9 on: 2009 June 15, 07:13:01 »
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Oh what the hell, I'm bored.

Pictoral results for tiny genetic experiments:



This is the First Gen, CAS-created of course, and their biological firstborn son. I changed his hair up seeing how I named him Saffron, and it turned out to be a great fit. He's my favorite of the first round. I love his sweet face, and how there's an even distribution of features from each parent.

Oh, and that gray spot on the dame's forehead? Seems to come from the skin tone mod and the blue skin tone. Which sucks, because I like that a lot for pale sims like her. Anyone else have this happening?



Same mom, different dad, here. She's very cute and I'm quite fond of her, but she took a little too much from her mom imho. But I think she was a god awful kid.

So, as a little final note. The screens of your brother vs sister clones kinda makes sense to me. It isn't terrible. It shows that the game is, to an extent, trying to feminize girls and add a degree of masculinity to guys, which I believe is a good thing in the war pretty townies.

As for what's next...



...only time will tell. Cheesy
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #10 on: 2009 June 15, 07:28:12 »
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Actually OpiumGirl, I think the "before" sim is prettier than the "after" sim.  I like the longer distance from nose to mouth in the "before" sim, for instance, as I think it works better with the full lips.  I'm definitely not seeing the fug that you're complaining about.

Some of the prettification changes you've made (such as a hairstyle that suits her face, and the eyebrow thickness) are cosmetic, and could be applied to a sim in-game.  If you want to compare before and after pics of facial structure it might be better if you didn't include cosmetic changes.
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OpiumGirl
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #11 on: 2009 June 15, 09:59:04 »
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I have no makeup on her at all in either pics....but, I do see what you mean.
 I definitely can't agree with you (or even relate), though, on the first on being nicer.  Tongue Not even in the least. My whole family had a look at these because I was making them for my niece's game, and the first one was "ewwww" and the second "ahhh". (as in relief) Purely objective statement not to be confused with "Beautiful Sim Judy" mentality. It makes me wonder if you're a sim maker somewhere who's getting me back for talking smack about other people's Sims. Roll Eyes I'm sure I'd love all your Sims! Every single one! Unless you made the first girl in my pics....
In all seriousness though, it just brings me back to *beauty* or *fugly* is in the eye of the beholder.  Grin (I hate using metaphors but there it is...)

Hope no one is edgy about this subject. I just wanted to know if there was something amiss with the genetics/physical traits.  Well, Pes says .... what he says. And what he says....is what he says.  So it probably is just by design.

@Ashkitty, cool pics.  That the little girl turned into a fine looking teen.  So all of the children have that look about them, eh?  Doesn't seem right, along with the genes women get in the game. It does make me feel better though.  I'll have a look and force her to grow up.

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Edited-for grammar, excessive smilies and to add info.

« Last Edit: 2009 June 15, 10:32:08 by OpiumGirl » Logged
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #12 on: 2009 June 15, 13:37:52 »
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Actually OpiumGirl, I think the "before" sim is prettier than the "after" sim... I'm definitely not seeing the fug that you're complaining about.

This.  I don't see real fugly on any of these.  I'm not particularly enamoured of some of the "before" examples, so the "after" examples don't seem so bad.  In fact, some of the male sims seem to work better as females.  The child is not fugly, in the sense of the game doing anything horrible to it, even if it did not turn out quite like the child the OP wanted.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #13 on: 2009 June 15, 15:53:26 »
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Actually OpiumGirl, I think the "before" sim is prettier than the "after" sim.  I like the longer distance from nose to mouth in the "before" sim, for instance, as I think it works better with the full lips.  I'm definitely not seeing the fug that you're complaining about.

I agree. I like the jaw of the "Before" more as well. The "Before" looks more natural, whereas the "After" looks like she had little tweaks done by a Korean plastic surgeon. I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #14 on: 2009 June 15, 16:14:32 »
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I like the jaw better on your "before" pic.
I prefer a more slender jaw though, looks a lot more feminine IMO.  I gave my first CAS female a super-slender jaw in order to counter-act the visual "fat" the in-game lighting seems to add to their faces.
« Last Edit: 2009 June 16, 18:30:49 by GnatGoSplat » Logged
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #15 on: 2009 June 15, 17:33:34 »
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I've actually been quite pleased with the way my born in game Sims are turning out.  A few have had awkward periods (or really unfortunate hair choices that made them look much worse at the outset), but almost all of them have grown up to be rather pleasing looking.  They're not all classically beautiful or handsome, but I've seen nothing even approaching the fugliness TS2 would throw at me.  And I've said it elsewhere, but almost all of the fug I've encountered has been realistic fug - the kind of ugliness you're likely to encounter walking through the mall rather than the house-of-mirrors type.

Except for the Bunch clan.  They're just F-U-ugly.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #16 on: 2009 June 15, 20:46:00 »
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I agree. I like the jaw of the "Before" more as well. The "Before" looks more natural, whereas the "After" looks like she had little tweaks done by a Korean plastic surgeon. I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

Just so I know what kind of Tard you are, do you have a problem with Koreans, plastic surgeons, or just when a person is both at the same time?
« Last Edit: 2009 June 15, 23:01:55 by magicmoon » Logged

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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #17 on: 2009 June 15, 22:02:41 »
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I like the first one a whole lot more.  *duck*
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OpiumGirl
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #18 on: 2009 June 15, 23:14:06 »
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Wow so, I guess because she's more feminine. I don't usually do really feminine girls, maybe cause I'm a tom-boy at heart.  But, I'm also an artist and I know that I see with different eyes than most, as does everyone, which is why I should have foreseen. (Not always better, mind you, just different)  I was surprised but, hey, that's why the old "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" cliche stands.

Those who thought the first one was nicer spoke up in defense of her so I'm sure she feels better knowing that someone finds her less than fugly. Sad for the second girl but she has the silent majority.  Roll Eyes I know in my deepest heart that there are people out there that are going, "wtf?!" about the first girl.  Grin
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #19 on: 2009 June 15, 23:20:19 »
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A little OT, but I kind of prefer the second face as well. Tongue

The first one feels kind of alien-esque-looking.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #20 on: 2009 June 15, 23:21:34 »
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A little OT, but I kind of prefer the second face as well. Tongue

The first one feels kind of alien-esque-looking.

I....I think I'm in love with you.

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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #21 on: 2009 June 15, 23:42:57 »
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Am I the only person who thinks they're both pretty, in different ways? The 'before' in a more media-idealized way, and the 'after' in a real-person she's pretty hot way.

You know, I think that's what's been bugging me about the before, that I couldn't quite put my finger on. She looks too much like fake plastic celebrity pretty.
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #22 on: 2009 June 15, 23:56:56 »
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No, Ayana, you're not. They are different, but neither is anywhere near hideous, ugly, or even slightly unattractive. I find the analysis of these bunches of pixels by their creator to be distasteful, but then they are her pixels. Just keep away from mine, okay?
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #23 on: 2009 June 16, 01:08:58 »
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For what it's worth, I thought both before and after pics were too fugly for me.  It's hard to say if it's an improvement.  The biggest problem with the first pic was the eyebrows.  But almost all the faces in the game have horrible eyebrows and no tools to fix them properly.  The outside edges of the eyebrows seem to permanently anchored such that raising the eyebrow (eyebrow height) only arches it even further.  Reducing the eyebrow arch slider does nothing to remove that outside eyebrow anchor.  Rotating eyebrows only rotates everything from the middle to the inside, exaggerating the arch.  The only thing to do when you get brows like that, that I have found, is to rotate the brows upwards (on the inside); the resulting brows are less arched, but the brows are strangely slanted and make the Sims look sad and passive.  It's much easier to just replace the brows.

We really got shitty slider tools with TS3.  I'm very pissed off about that.

The mouth is also crappy, but you did little to improve that in the second pic.  Large mouths seem to come standard in the game, just as they did with basic TS2.  I usually end up shrinking them quite dramatically.  You can create a simllar effect, though, with a makeup change.  Using a lighter makeup makes it look less prominent.  And if we can ever make our OWN makeup (not this color wheel crap) then we may be able to do even better.

Back to the topic at top -- This is more important I guess -- genetic facial gender dysmorphism in the game:

TS2 was AWFUL in this regard.  I can't understand anybody thinking TS3 is worse.  In my set of default replacement TS2 archetype faces, I focused on making more attractive female faces; the males got beaten pretty badly by the Fugly Stick as a result. 

If TS3 is anything like TS2, I can probably tell you what is going on.  Every sim, regardless of gender, carried the settings for both male and female faces in their file.  Tweaking the face for one gender applied changes to the settings for the analogous opposite gender face, although you did not see that.  The unseen opposite gender face owed its genesis to the other part of a face pair in the game archetypes.

What I COULD have done (and never did, sadly) was to edit the faces of males and females separately and then merging separately edited male and female faces together when constructing the new default.  When the tools become available for doing this with TS3, that's going to be one of my first TS3 projects. 
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OpiumGirl
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Re: What, in Heaven's name, is up with traits?! Scary Pic included
« Reply #24 on: 2009 June 16, 04:10:34 »
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You know, I think that's what's been bugging me about the before, that I couldn't quite put my finger on. She looks too much like fake plastic celebrity pretty.

Yes, yes! Fake and plastic!
I agree. I like the jaw of the "Before" more as well. The "Before" looks more natural, whereas the "After" looks like she had little tweaks done by a Korean plastic surgeon. I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

Just so I know what kind of Tard you are, do you have a problem with Koreans, plastic surgeons, or just when a person is both at the same time?


 Cheesy!! I didn't know if I shouild be offended by the whole Korean statement.  My gut feeling was "yes", but "tard" may work depending on whether or not that's a politically correct statement by itself.
 Funnykid has the pictures confused, anyway.  It's the first that has a plastic and stretched look about her.

@Doc Dufus, your post only solidifies how differently people view beauty.  I disagree quite stronly with a lot of your ideas that would "better" the way they look. I have a feeling that I wouldn't particularly like the results of your most beautiful sim (in your eyes),  and I say that with complete objectivity. It's obvious that there are many who would feel completely the same, and completely opposite and, well, in between as well.

To clarify all of this, I never did say that any of them were "beautiful".  As I said, I do my best to make each sim very, very different from one another which often yields *unpretty* and imperfect results.  What I mean is, sometimes I make the lips a little too big, lush and/or put the nose closer to the mouth as in the first pic. Had I shrunk his lips, moved his mouth down a bit and other minor tweaks, then he would probably be "handsome" to some who can't look past outstanding features. But I go for unique.  If I perfected every one of them, they'd all look exactly the same.  So, I go with outstanding features a lot. If you then look at the Father of the homely child, ehem, you will see that no features of his or particularly outstanding and is actually rather bland in a way, though no unpleasantly so.  Just like real people.
So, I'm not harping on fugly Sims..You should see some of the ones I've had. It's just that if I make a normal looking sim, I want his/her family to come out the same. Make sense?  Not distasteful anymore (zazazu?), hopefully. I do tend to forget that some people don't know that I'm being humorous a lot of times.  It's hard to translate everything via computer....

I appreciate everyone's opinion and, I may be coming back with my head hanging low when my child grows up and looks normal.  If there's interest still, I'll be sure to post the pictures so you can say 1. "See? I told you so" or 2. "I don't think she's that bad" or 3. "Yuck, you were right!
And you can bet we'd hear every single one of those!!  Cheesy

Are outside links to pics allowed?  I can't locate anything against it. Many may hate me for this...but, let's just have a laugh!!
This is not my sim and I do not endorse this sort of sick joke upon the masses, but she is revered as beautiful.... I saw comments like "she's gorgeous!" with my very own eyes. I could definitely think of a few descriptive words for her too but, you're probably not interested... Roll Eyes That's what I'm afraid my child will look like... *shudders*. There can't be TOO many who....well, ya never know, it's a very *diverse* place, this world. She's So HAWT! Right? Right everyone?  Kiss

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« Last Edit: 2009 June 16, 17:52:32 by BastDawn » Logged
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