Crash on resized lots at 7PM -- any ideas?
pbox:
Hello,
a couple of days ago Mootilda posted a test version of the LotExpander (v1.2.7.8 ) on mts2 that can not only expand but also shrink lots. With this, it is now possible to build edge-to-edge on a lot (by building on a larger lot first, and then shrinking it) -- something that some people, me included, have been waiting for since the base game.
We're experiencing an infrequent crash on those resized lots, and I'm posting here in order to solicit help in trying to figure out what's causing it. I have a strong interest in this because I want to be able to upload resized lots with a clear conscience -- however I'm not a modder myself, nor am I involved in the LotExpander development on a technical level. I can't make sense of a crash log either, needless to say .. I can only build stuff. Please help, so that I can spend the rest of my life building sim row houses. Thank you.
Here is all I currently know:
* A few testers have experienced a crash at exactly 7PM on the first day (Monday) after moving sims into a resized lot. I only crashed once; Rascal managed several times, Simsample several times. Another tester (aelflaed) didn't get a single crash no matter how hard she tried; several others said they haven't had any crashes either.
* All of the lots it occurred on were built by me, using LE 1.2.7.7 and 1.2.7.8 respectively to shrink them on the left and right side (There is no technical difference between those versions w/r/t shrinking, says Mootilda). I have never heard of any such crash on any of my other lots (I have more than half a million downloads) -- so I'm very sure it has to do with the resizing.
* The crash does not happen consistently. All that's consistent is the time, and the fact that it only ever happened on the first day in a newly placed lot. It is unclear whether it's actually caused by something in the lot package itself, or by something the game does on a new lot at 7PM.
It would be fantastic if someone could take a look at the crash logs and help us figure this out.
See also this post where I try to maintain a list of possibly contributing factors vs. stuff that has been ruled out. Maybe it's helpful.
Reports:
simsample -- posted below, with logs
plasticbox:
original report | repost (with lot attached)
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"My game crashed with the infamous "The application has crashed" error the first day around at 19:00 (7PM). This might have something to do with the night setting in (I can't think of anything else that's scheduled to happen at 19:00) -- the game being unable to render shadows or something.
On the first try (when it crashed), I had visible neighbours on and shadows set to High. On my second try, I turned neighbours and shadows off: no crash this time, and when I turned the neighbours back on it didn't crash either.
This is with Base+NL, in the "Mini Game" hood that's provided by the Base Game Starter, my testers were the Randoms, I had no hacks installed and no CC apart from frillen's invisible driveway. None of the sims was doing anything out of the ordinary at the time of the crash (I think they were watching TV or reading), and nobody except the two residents was present on the lot."
This was with Row House 01. Log attached below. I play on an ancient laptop, XP Home SP2, 1GB RAM, with an ATI Radeon Mobility 9600.
My "second try" was the exact same lot, same residents, same position, same everything -- I restarted the game, went back in the lot and resumed playing at 8AM (I hadn't saved).
Rascal:
From report 1 (the lot was Backdoor Lane 42; log attached below):
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At just on 7pm (change from day to night) the game crashed. I reloaded the game and replayed the family through 7pm and game was fine. (..) Played through to next morning - sunrise - game just fine. So I moved another sim into an identical lot next door - no crash at 7pm.
From report 2 (using the same lot):
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I tried placing the house in a different neighbourhood and moving in a new sim - again the crash at 7pm - again no crash on replay.
I have all eps up to and including seasons and no stuff packs. My game is definately not hack free - I have a large assortment from MATY and a few bits and pieces from here. I will try this again with no hacks later tonight and report back - but my game is usually very stable.
Further testing:
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I'm afraid I can't establish a consistent set of circumstances that will cause a crash. I've only ever got the crash with the first of these lots in the neighbourhood that I've moved a sim into - but I've twice managed to move a brand new sim into a brand new lot in a brand new test neighbourhood with no crash. The only consistent thing is the time - always 7pm.
I tried the other shrunken lot house Plasticbox uploaded earlier in this thread and managed to get a crash the first time I moved a sim into that one too.
Having my hacks folder in or out doesn't seem to make any difference.
"other shrunken lot house" is either Row House 01 or Row House 03, not sure. Rascal has an ATI RADEON X800GT. I don't know anything else about her setup. Can try to poke her if necessary. Pentium 4 3.40GHz, 1GB RAM, XP Media Centre Edition SP2.
Comments so far:
Mootilda says here that the only difference between LotExpander 1.2.7.7 and 1.2.7.8 was an unrelated fix (fence posts).
Also (copied from below):
Quote from: Mootilda
I am not deleting any objects during the shrinking process. If an object, such as the window, disappears after shrinking, then this is being done by the game itself.
I am hoping that this is an issue with something in the lot file, and not with the game's inability to deal with walls at the edges of the lot.
aelflaed on having no crashes (the EDIT is wrong btw, one of the test lots is base game only).
aelflaed:
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I've had a thought - knowing about the possible 7PM crash, I have been carefully saving my houses sometime before that on the first day. Maybe this is a factor? Would the lack of a save contribute to the crash?
Rascal:
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I didn't save once my sims had moved in but I did enter the house in build mode prior to moving them in and altered the staircase and then saved the lot. I didn't do this the second time I got the crash though so that obviously doesn't make a difference. I will have a go at saving once sims are on the lot and see - of course I may not get a crash no matter what I do.
I should add that when I crashed the double row house it was in the same neighbourhood as the first crash (single house) but using a different sim family. So you can get the crash twice in the same neighbourhood if you use a different house. Or maybe that's because they were shrunk with different versions of the lot expander?
Mootilda:
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I believe that the reason that we are associating this crash with lighting is that the only thing which obviously occurs in the game at 7PM is the change from day to night.
If anyone know of anything else which occurs at 7PM, please let us know.
Just to set people's expectations realistically: I doubt that there is anything that we can do about this crash. After all, we are using the LotExpander to attempt to get around a known limitation in the game; I am not changing anything about the way that the game handles the lot file... Unless we can narrow this down to a specific change in a specific record type within the lot package, we may just have to learn to live with the intermittent crash.
niol:
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1. Plasticbox rowhouse crash mystery:
I'll divide it in the following ways here:
a. if it is caused by trimmed invisible objects in a lot, then we can go investigate the objT listing to trace for evidence esp. for time controller or something like that?, then it can be an issue for LE. Then, we may need some fix on the LE to move all the other invisible objects to a location of a lot where will stay regardless of expansion or shrinking. The safest point to store these invisible objects is the origin (0,0) coz whichever way the lot is rotated, this point will stay as always as it's the only mutual point.
b. if it's caused by the light being placed crossing the kept and the trimmed, that's obviously solvable by not doing so. Problem solved for this possiblity.
c. unmatched terrains between a lot and a neighbourhood, simply move the the lot to else where, right? Problem solved for this possiblity.
d.
Quote from: Inge Jones
If that crashing is to do with having lights on the lot before shrinking, have you tried the same lot without lights on (add the lights after shrinking) ? If the crash doesn't happen then, at least we've narrowed it down. If it can't be tracked down why it happens, at least users can be advised to get rid of lights before shrinking.
Problem solved for this possiblity.
All the other latter 3 can be solved or avoided with supposed precautions to warn makers and/or users.
Only the first possibility can be relevant enough to stay.
(the mention of lights may be with regard to a previous "blind alarm" about a street light that allegedly disappeared -- turned out that the tester had moved sims in and out, so it got removed along with the other furniture, which is normal)
plasticbox:
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Quick addition regarding the 7PM crash: some (niol; Inge?) mentioned it may be related to the streetlight at the edge of the lot -- but in my game (no hacks/lighting mods), the outdoor lights are turned on at 6PM and not 7PM (yes, it's silly, was Maxis' idea not mine). It could still be that the game does something with the light at 7PM, but the point where it gets turned on is earlier than that.
Mootilda, via PM:
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I don't have any intention of trying to resolve the issue by writing a hack to change the game itself (which is probably what's needed).
If anyone can narrow a crash down to a problem with a specific record within the lot package, then it becomes relevant to the LE, and possibly fixable.
Mootilda:
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It would be wonderful if people could point me to an exact record type, instance, or version which was causing the crashes.
Linkdump:
R+D thread on lot resizing @ mts2 -- this is where all the action is, be warned that it's *long*
Lot Expander 1.2.7.8 "Lot Shrinker with Fence Post fix" (Mootilda) -- this is a TEST version
LotExpander thread -- current release
Row house tutorial -- build mode issues thread
Row house uploads (Backdoor Lane 42) -- gameplay issues thread
Thread here on MATY on resizing lots -- no mention of crashes so far
Please post here with any ideas (not in the mts2 R+D thread, that one's a real challenge to keep on top of already -- we're struggling to keep the discussions readable). http://
Doc Doofus:
Over in Peasantry, I posted a link to my own 1x1 row house for download. It works fine for me, no crash at 7pm.
Now, some thoughts about what the problems might be for other people.
7pm DOES indicate something related to the change from daytime to night, something to do with lighting. But could the change in lighting also be related to objects that appear outside the scope of the lot?
I'll give you a couple of examples.
Lights. Are there any lights on the shrunken SIDES of the house, hung from walls? If so, then those lights are, technically, outside the lot itself. I didn't try doing that, but it's something somebody else might reasonably try, so it's worth looking into.
Also, windows... I have noticed something interesting about windows. The windows that are backwards (that is, with the window sill on the outside -- you have to look very closely to notice this because I can't ever remember for the life of me which way placement arrow is supposed to point) -- the backwards windows appear just fine on my house, but the others are invisible with blank holes outlining where the window should be. Is it possible that the frontwards/backwardsness of windows is having an effect on this? Again, I have had no problems with my lot, and I played it for many Sim-days, and I have windows facing both directions on the shunken-side walls, but perhaps for those people experiencing problems, they could try changing that to see if that gets them past 7pm.
Another thought... Could it be caused by having another property or row-house in an adjoining lot? I had no adjoining properties on my lot. Since these are advertised as row-houses, I wonder if people could be lining them up right next to each other before playing. In that case, the change of lighting at 7pm might be related to some issue with overlapping that we didn't consider. Try placing the troubled lots in an emptier place and see if the problem goes away.
pbox:
Quote from: Doc Doofus
Are there any lights on the shrunken SIDES of the house, hung from walls?
No.
The only thing we think *might* be related is the street light in front, because the light it sheds is partly on the deleted part of the lot. But: Almost all my normal lots have a streetlight in exactly this location, and none of them crash. Also: the only reason we think there might be a connection to lighting is the time of the crash correlating with nightfall. It's only a hypothesis -- there might be something else occurring at 7PM on the first day. Like the gypsy, who also only appears on the first day (not at 7PM though).
Quote from: Doc Doofus
Is it possible that the frontwards/backwardsness of windows is having an effect on this?
There are no windows on the sides of any of my lots.
Quote from: Doc Doofus
Could it be caused by having another property or row-house in an adjoining lot?
I was able to play with no crash, with adjoining lots. Neighbours visible, all graphics options set to High. Even if it plays a role, that can't be the only reason.
Quote from: Doc Doofus
Try placing the troubled lots in an emptier place and see if the problem goes away.
I'm not interested in making the problem go away .. I want to know the reason :).
Thanks for your input -- I didn't think of mentioning the adjoining lots.
behold_the_muse:
My game crashed while I was testing the last Backdoor Lane lot, just as described here. I moved in a CAS sim and let her greet her neighbors. I think she made them sandwiches. I'm sorry if this sounds like gibberish! I can't think of anything meaningful to attribute the crash to. Hope this helps.
pbox:
behold_the_muse,
just to clarify: your crash did happen at 7PM, yes? (Because you mention greeting the neighbours .. in my game they appear much earlier, around noon I think)
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